POLL: Will TT Pick Up Tillery's 5th Year Option?

[powderblueboy]

You want teams to run on 3rd and long if you can stop the run. That is exactly the problem with Tillery being on the field. The point of the discussion is that if Tillery is on the field, opponents will not be forced to pass the ball. They will frequently be able to run well enough to get either a first down or enough yardage such that they can consider going for it on 4th down if their field position is good enough.

Also, if Tillery is on the field, it does not matter what running play is called. It is likely that it will be up to the second or third level to get the stop. That is the the norm for Tillery involved run defense, not the exception. I agree that traditionally in those situations the play would often be a draw or delay, but frankly, with Tillery on the field, I think other running plays would be effective as well.

I think even Xenos understands that Tillery is a run defending liability.

Do we want our defensive linemen holding the point of attack on 3rd and long?
Everything else sounds great.....i'm beginning to understand: keep up the good work!:drool:

[blueman]

So um, I think the question in the thread title got answered?

[powderblueboy]

So um, I think the question in the thread title got answered?

Close the thread?

Egads, no!

[Guest]

Lets not get carried away with these stats.
Remember, only 13.8% of 3rd down and long plays are running plays, so the element of surprise is greatly at play.

Let's see: 23% success rate on 13.8% of 3rd & longs means 3.3% of 3rd and longs are a conversion through running the football (do qb scrambles count?).
How many 3rd and longs are there in a game?

There are about 65 offensive plays per game in regulation. Of those, maybe 15 - 20 are 3rd downs, and lets say half are 3rd and longs (???).
So we are talking about 8 - 10 plays per game, and 3 % of those are successful 3rd and long running plays.
:below:

So once every blue moon, an offense will convert on 3rd and long running the football.
Again you are right:hello:, and lets base everything around preventing that from happening.....Tillery should never step on a football field with the Chargers..

You are citing NFL stats, not Chargers run defense stats, not Jerry Tillery stats. Again, trusting opponents not to take advantage of something that is available to them as an option is just a stupid way to run a defense.

You also have failed to account for the "unsuccessful running plays" that leave an opponent with a chance to go for it on 4th down. You have failed to consider that Tillery is also not a good pass rusher per his PFF pass rushing grade. You have failed to consider that Tillery does not push the pocket and a pocket pusher would help Bosa and Mack get more sacks by reducing the ability of the QB to step up in the pocket.

Tillery gives us no net gain as a pass rusher and hurts us in the running game severely. That is why he needs not to be on the field. But if we are to play him, do not play him on anything less than 11+ yards to go. We need to avoid that.

Other than the case of a GM trying to save face, there is literally no reason that Jerry Tillery should have a roster spot on our team. Just make him a straight cut--addition by subtraction.

[Guest]

So um, I think the question in the thread title got answered?

There never was a question. The dude never posted a PFF grade above the mid 40s in three seasons. Tillery has been lucky that the team has kept him this long.

[Guest]

Do we want our defensive linemen holding the point of attack on 3rd and long?
Everything else sounds great.....i'm beginning to understand: keep up the good work!:drool:

We want our DL players to cave in the pocket to maximize sacks for Bosa and Mack. Unless we have a great interior pass rusher, collapsing the pocket on a regular basis is more important than an extra sack twice per season coupled with inconsistent collapsing of the pocket.

As Chargers fans, we should appreciate the value of that as year after year we got to see interior OL players pushed into Rivers, causing him problems.

[powderblueboy]

You are citing NFL stats, not Chargers run defense stats, not Jerry Tillery stats. Again, trusting opponents not to take advantage of something that is available to them as an option is just a stupid way to run a defense.

You also have failed to account for the "unsuccessful running plays" that leave an opponent with a chance to go for it on 4th down. You have failed to consider that Tillery is also not a good pass rusher per his PFF pass rushing grade. You have failed to consider that Tillery does not push the pocket and a pocket pusher would help Bosa and Mack get more sacks by reducing the ability of the QB to step up in the pocket.

Tillery gives us no net gain as a pass rusher and hurts us in the running game severely. That is why he needs not to be on the field. But if we are to play him, do not play him on anything less than 11+ yards to go. We need to avoid that.

Other than the case of a GM trying to save face, there is literally no reason that Jerry Tillery should have a roster spot on our team. Just make him a straight cut--addition by subtraction.

This would be true for all pass rush specialists, and not just Tillery.....suddenly we are going to see a sea change in how D coordinators deal with pass rush specialists who enter the game on 3rd down?

Come on now!

As for NFL stats not applying to the Chargers here in this case, you are doing a very poor job of convincing anyone that getting gashed by running plays on 3rd down , with Tillery in the game, has been an Achilles heel for the Chargers.

[Guest]

This would be true for all pass rush specialists, and not just Tillery.....suddenly we are going to see a sea change in how D coordinators deal with pass rush specialists who enter the game on 3rd down?

Come on now!

As for NFL stats not applying to the Chargers here in this case, you are doing a very poor job of convincing anyone that getting gashed by running plays on 3rd down , with Tillery in the game, has been an Achilles heel for the Chargers.

You are just wrong everywhere.

1. Tillery sucking in run defense does not make him a "pass rush specialist". Do you get that Tillery is a below average pass rusher as evidenced by his PFF pass rush grade?

2. Tillery is one of the worst run defending DL players in the NFL. Actual pass rush specialists defend the run better than Tillery does. I have zero problem with defending the pass on 3rd down and long by using actual pass rush specialists that have at least some measure of competence in defending the run. However, Tillery is not a legitimate pass rush specialist and he opens up the running game for opponents even on 3rd down and long yardage situations because he is a totally incompetent run defender.

3. Getting gashed by running plays has always been a problem with Tillery in the game on all downs as evidenced by his fully manure level PFF run defending grades throughout his career. Borrowing from Xenos, everyone knows Tillery is a horrible run defender. This problem does not somehow improve when we take out a big DL player and maybe a LB and add one or more DBs. Instead, the susceptibility to the run gets worse.

4. On 3rd and long, why would we choose to bring in a bad pass rusher who does not help our pass defense while simultaneously opening up the running game for our opponents? That is a stupid strategy. And since Tillery sucks as both a run defender and pass defender, my recommendation would be for us to allow him to play elsewhere, hopefully for someone that we get to play against a lot.

[equivocation]

Move Tillery to safety on 3rd and long.

[Scott Green]

You are citing NFL stats, not Chargers run defense stats, not Jerry Tillery stats. Again, trusting opponents not to take advantage of something that is available to them as an option is just a stupid way to run a defense.

You also have failed to account for the "unsuccessful running plays" that leave an opponent with a chance to go for it on 4th down. You have failed to consider that Tillery is also not a good pass rusher per his PFF pass rushing grade. You have failed to consider that Tillery does not push the pocket and a pocket pusher would help Bosa and Mack get more sacks by reducing the ability of the QB to step up in the pocket.

Tillery gives us no net gain as a pass rusher and hurts us in the running game severely. That is why he needs not to be on the field. But if we are to play him, do not play him on anything less than 11+ yards to go. We need to avoid that.

Other than the case of a GM trying to save face, there is literally no reason that Jerry Tillery should have a roster spot on our team. Just make him a straight cut--addition by subtraction.

My recollection of last year that any run play to the defenses left side was a gaping hole. Not Tillery's side. Not that hes good against the run but no one was. Jones played that side better than Joseph but the line sucked and for all the tackles White had they were five or ten yards late. The runs were at him. Tillerys problem is being tall. Guards get under him and move him regularly. If hes in pursuit or the play is wide he is probably about average but not worth the dollars he would have been paid. PFF grades aren't the end all be all. Guys were out of position and unfamiliar with a new scheme. Plus K9 had two bad ankles and one needed surgery. Jerry Tillery was a problem last year but far from the biggest problem.

[powderblueboy]

You are just wrong everywhere.

1. Tillery sucking in run defense does not make him a "pass rush specialist". Do you get that Tillery is a below average pass rusher as evidenced by his PFF pass rush grade?

2. Tillery is one of the worst run defending DL players in the NFL. Actual pass rush specialists defend the run better than Tillery does. I have zero problem with defending the pass on 3rd down and long by using actual pass rush specialists that have at least some measure of competence in defending the run. However, Tillery is not a legitimate pass rush specialist and he opens up the running game for opponents even on 3rd down and long yardage situations because he is a totally incompetent run defender.

3. Getting gashed by running plays has always been a problem with Tillery in the game on all downs as evidenced by his fully manure level PFF run defending grades throughout his career. Borrowing from Xenos, everyone knows Tillery is a horrible run defender. This problem does not somehow improve when we take out a big DL player and maybe a LB and add one or more DBs. Instead, the susceptibility to the run gets worse.

4. On 3rd and long, why would we choose to bring in a bad pass rusher who does not help our pass defense while simultaneously opening up the running game for our opponents? That is a stupid strategy. And since Tillery sucks as both a run defender and pass defender, my recommendation would be for us to allow him to play elsewhere, hopefully for someone that we get to play against a lot.

Once again, whether Tillery is good at rushing the passer is a separate issue;
your original contention was that Tillery should not be in on 3rd & longs because he is a liability in the running game,
and that teams have effectively run the ball against the Chargers in those situations, with Tillery on the field.

Why can't you focus?

You were asked to give some proof to that effect to which you never responded. You were patiently told that in any case, the occurrence of teams
successfully running the football on 3rd & long was so rare that it was not worth the bother to consider. One brave soul tried to persuade you that
run responsibilities on such occasions rested on the 2nd and 3rd levels of the D. These missiles harmlessly bounced off your thick armor plating,
but did get you to redirect towards a reduced & somewhat lame hypothetical stance: that there was some type of gold mine for O-coordinators
across the league to productively mine here with Tillery, and that if they would start running the football on 3rd downs with him on the field, we were doomed.


Now, you are asked that if O-coordinators had finally become as clever as you, and that they were poised to go against convention and relentlessly
attack the Charger D on 3rd and long with rushing plays to expose this deficiency in Tillery's game, wouldn't they extend this notion across the league:
exposing any pass rush specialist in a like matter on 3rd downs? Are you not arguing that NFL teams should no longer deploy, nor waste roster spots
on pass rush specialists, because they were about to become obsolete?

Another question for you that is logically consistent with your train of argument; another evasion on your part,
now fleeing towards hyperbole in describing Tillery as the worst run defender in the league, and adding for good measure that he is not a good pass rusher.
Then why does it matter whether they pass or run with him on the field? This of course is a rhetorical question, by this point I am no longer expecting you
to make sense.

I will just finish with this remark. Why are you wasting our time with the need to appear bloody brilliant? Why not just come out and say
from the very beginning that Tillery is bad vs the run & pass, so you don't want him on the field period. I've stated some time ago that I thought
Tillery was less as a pass rusher than the general opinion of this forum....it is not like you would be saying anything dramatic. The only difference is that
I hope that i'm proven wrong, and that you hope that you are proven correct.

I almost feel that any discussion with you that is headed towards clarity, is suddenly wrenched in a different direction to avoid that outcome.

[CivilBolt]

Move Tillery to the bench on 3rd and long.

Fixed it for you :tongue: