Thoughts On Cutting Keenan Allen?

[DerwinBosa]

With the expanded playoff structure, there is a difference between a one and done type, and a team that legitimately can compete for a title.

Getting rid of Allen and Bosa means we have a solid but unspectacular O that can take what an D gives us, but cannot control the game, and a D that is at best a speed bump.

I'm also finding your repulsion to what I'm saying to be completely odd. Did you not write this last year?

There are two problems most of the best passing offenses have.

1). They can move the ball like crazy, but at some point, they need to impose their will on the other team. Taking what the other team gives you (us) is a fine concept until you realize that to some degree you are doing what the other team's wants you to do. If you want to be a championship team, you have to impose your will on the other team.

2). Toughness. Passing offense takes a lot of repetition to get really good at. Lots of individual patterns, lots of 7 on 7, playing against air. Then when you go to play against bodies, not only are the D (and OL) techniques bad because they don't get the reps in practice, you don't get the teamwork either. Running the football is tough because it only takes 1 mistake to blow up a play. You have to dominate the other team or it doesn't get you a lot of yards. But at some point, if you want/need that 1 yard at the goal line or on 4th down, you have to impose your will on the other team and get the tough yard.

https://www.thepowderblues.com/forum/forum/los-angeles-chargers-forum-nfl-forum-padres-forum/the-los-angeles-chargers-forum/1315413-herbert-vs-his-peers/page23

Running the ball is sometimes about trying to keep the pass rush in check. Only morons think it is a good idea to let the pass rushers get into their sprinter's stance, explode upfield and get after the QB.

It also is handy to wear down the pass rushers, and tire their legs. Pass rushers only have so many good explosive snaps in them over the course of a game, and if they have to use them up playing the run, then those plays make it easier to protect the QB after the DL wears down.

https://www.thepowderblues.com/forum...s-peers/page25

Running still gives teams a chance to impose their will on the defense. At some point all this bullshit about taking what the defense gives you is playing the game they want you to play. No defense can stop everything, so they give you things that will hurt less and try to make some plays on their own.

And teams that don't try and run the ball and work at it never get better. It takes practice time, it takes game time and it takes patience.

In football, there is a hard end to the game. So, efficiency isn't the end all be all. Who cares if you are necessarily being efficient in the offensive or defensive or (ST) sense, it is the efficiency in the point differential, and even that is not that important. The ideal way to end a football game once you have a lead would be to average 3.4 yards per play and drive the ball down and score and eat up the clock while doing so. But none of your poorly thought-through assumptions factor in how to help the D. Keeping them off the field and the offense on is still the best way to protect a bad D and help a good or great D.

You are also dead wrong in your shared assumption with Tony Romo, which is pretty easily done, since Tony is not one of the world's great thinkers. You are ASSUMING that every time we throw that Herbert is a shot to make a 1st down. A lot of our 2nd (and some 3rd down) attempts are not throwing the ball for a 1st down. They are trying to set up a better down and distance for 3rd or 4th down. That is particularly true when we are behind schedule. Those passes aren't giving Herbert a chance. Running to keep on or ahead of schedule is a really, really good way to maintain the attack part of the passing offense. When you are ahead of schedule the WR are going downfield rather than asking our WR, who are NOT quick game specialists, to run route combinations that attack downfield.

https://www.thepowderblues.com/forum...s-peers/page26

[21&500]

Jesus! did you quote someone from last year?!?
Next level posting sir, I'm impressed, and also scared.
:freakout:

[powderblueboy]

YOU don't understand it, in part, because you overrate Keenan Allen at this point of his career.

If Keenan leaves, the Chargers will find another receiver, just like the Chiefs did after Tyreek Hill went to the Dolphins. Even if this replacement isn't as good as Allen, if Herbert is as great as we think he is he should have no problem still playing at an elite (there's that word again) level without Keenan. Rivers did this in multiple seasons, most notably in 2010 (4,710 yards, 30 touchdowns), when Vincent Jackson missed 11 games because of a holdout and Antonio Gates was out for seven games with an injury.

So let me get his straight: You would get mad if we picked Bijan Robinson or another running back early in the draft and he gained 1,500 yards on the ground?

Why would Steve get mad at that? It would just support his contention that the Chargers are a running team.
Throw in the touches to Ekeler and its 2006 all over again (except without the results).

However, when your D can't get off the field and gives up points in bunches, the decision to be 'balanced' will be rendered moot.

How good is Bijan in running routes? Better than Keenan?

[wu-dai clan]

Bijan, Jahmyr and Tyjae are all three capable of lining up as WRs and running the WR route tree. This would be vs defensive packages designed to stop the run.

There are two keys when discussing Keenan. One is our cap numbers and the other is the development of Palmer.

Throw in a TE who can get deep, ie Musgrave, and what you have is exactly what Kellen Moore seeks plus what Herbert can execute flawlessly--matchup advantages.

[Tomdutchy]

Jesus! did you quote someone from last year?!?
Next level posting sir, I'm impressed, and also scared.
:freakout:

WTF?!? Is this how ChatGPT will take over our posts? lol
Can we restructure Allen"s contract and when he's done he will be the highest paid WR coach in the NFL?

[DerwinBosa]

Jesus! did you quote someone from last year?!?
Next level posting sir, I'm impressed, and also scared.
:freakout:

LOL. I started posting here about a year ago, and my initial interaction was with chiancrusher about how we needed to be a more balanced offense. He went off about how stupid that was, so I gave plenty of examples of how developing a running game helped elite quarterbacks such as Brady and Peyton win their Super Bowls. The thread went on and on and on for about 35 pages, and Steve was the only one who backed me up. So, in this thread I found it odd that he was so turned off by what I was writing.

[DerwinBosa]

Why would Steve get mad at that? It would just support his contention that the Chargers are a running team.
Throw in the touches to Ekeler and its 2006 all over again (except without the results).

However, when your D can't get off the field and gives up points in bunches, the decision to be 'balanced' will be rendered moot.

How good is Bijan in running routes? Better than Keenan?

"When your D can't get off the field and gives up points in bunches..." like in the second half against Jacksonville, when we ran it six times? Yeah, that worked out so well. And why couldn't we get off the field this past season? Could it have anything to do with the fact that we gave up 2,478 yards rushing, more than the 900 we gained?

Define running team? If Justin Herbert throws for over 4,000 yards and 30+ touchdowns in addition to Bijan Robinson running for 1,500 yards does that make the Chargers a running team?

I can't use the Cowboys in 2022 as an example because Dak Prescott was injured and missed five games. In 2021, under Kellen Moore, Dak threw for 4,449 yards and 37 touchdowns while Zeke Elliott and Tony Pollard combined for 1,721 yards rushing. As a team the Cowboys passed for 4,800 yards and rushed for 2,119 yards. Do you define that as a running team?

Also, if we drafted Bijan Robinson and he turned out to be an elite (there's that word again) running back, it would free Ekeler up to do what he does best--catch the ball out of the backfield. I used Bijan Robinson running for 1,500 yards as an example to see how outrageous Steve is; he wouldn't actually have to do that, since it's a lot to ask of a rookie. But if Robinson were to gain 1,100 or 1,200 yards or more and Ekeler had about 500 on the ground instead of 900 I don't see how that's a problem. I see running for 1,524 yards as a team, which is what we did this past season, as a major problem, especially when your quarterback is banged up for most of the year.

[powderblueboy]

"When your D can't get off the field and gives up points in bunches..." like in the second half against Jacksonville, when we ran it six times? Yeah, that worked out so well. And why couldn't we get off the field this past season? Could it have anything to do with the fact that we gave up 2,478 yards rushing, more than the 900 we gained?

Define running team? If Justin Herbert throws for over 4,000 yards and 30+ touchdowns in addition to Bijan Robinson running for 1,500 yards does that make the Chargers a running team?

I can't use the Cowboys in 2022 as an example because Dak Prescott was injured and missed five games. In 2021, under Kellen Moore, Dak threw for 4,449 yards and 37 touchdowns while Zeke Elliott and Tony Pollard combined for 1,721 yards rushing. As a team the Cowboys passed for 4,800 yards and rushed for 2,119 yards. Do you define that as a running team?

Also, if we drafted Bijan Robinson and he turned out to be an elite (there's that word again) running back, it would free Ekeler up to do what he does best--catch the ball out of the backfield. I used Bijan Robinson running for 1,500 yards as an example to see how outrageous Steve is; he wouldn't actually have to do that, since it's a lot to ask of a rookie. But if Robinson were to gain 1,100 or 1,200 yards or more and Ekeler had about 500 on the ground instead of 900 I don't see how that's a problem. I see running for 1,524 yards as a team, which is what we did this past season, as a major problem, especially when your quarterback is banged up for most of the year.

A running team has the offensive line and auxilary pieces (tight ends/wide recievers) spend more time practicing run blocking than pass protection. When they do pass, play action is a big part of the passing game. If the running game is shut down, the passing game doesn't work well because the offensive line will not be prepared to hold up to the exotic 2nd /3rd down pass rush packages that D coordinators will bring.

If you draft Bijan Robinson, you will have to spend more time preparing to run the football. You can't prepare the same way as last year and then just stick him in there and tell him to succeed (look at how well he did against Alabama). It would be a waste of a top draft pick if you didn't.

The defense has to be one that benefits significantly by field position. Pinning offenses inside their twenty and watching Staley's defense bend and then break again and again would be a killer.

[Bolt4Knob]

With the expanded playoff structure, there is a difference between a one and done type, and a team that legitimately can compete for a title.

Getting rid of Allen and Bosa means we have a solid but unspectacular O that can take what an D gives us, but cannot control the game, and a D that is at best a speed bump.

I don't necessarily agree that getting rid of Bosa and Allen and all of the sudden hte team gets worse. Maybe on the defense that applies to Bosa but at the same time, the defense with and without Bosa - is basically the same. Inconsistent and can't get off the field on 3rd down.

As for Allen - the idea would be to add different players that can make the offense different than the 2022 version that might be better. Get younger and faster. Williams and Palmer can be your pseudo possession types

Losing Bosa and Allen doesn't mean the team needs to take a step backward. It just means Telesco and Staley have to do their jobs better.

The main reasons I advocate for trading Bosa and moving on from Allen are not about the 2023 season. Its about the 2023 through 2026 seasons and staying somewhat even or ahead of the cap.

[Bolt4Knob]

Bijan, Jahmyr and Tyjae are all three capable of lining up as WRs and running the WR route tree. This would be vs defensive packages designed to stop the run.

There are two keys when discussing Keenan. One is our cap numbers and the other is the development of Palmer.

Throw in a TE who can get deep, ie Musgrave, and what you have is exactly what Kellen Moore seeks plus what Herbert can execute flawlessly--matchup advantages.

If the Chargers are afraid of moving on from Keenan Allen because they are worried about the lack of production in the 2023 season- that is the biggest indictment of the front office to date.

[richpjr]

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[charger1_sj]

I don't necessarily agree that getting rid of Bosa and Allen and all of the sudden hte team gets worse. Maybe on the defense that applies to Bosa but at the same time, the defense with and without Bosa - is basically the same. Inconsistent and can't get off the field on 3rd down.

As for Allen - the idea would be to add different players that can make the offense different than the 2022 version that might be better. Get younger and faster. Williams and Palmer can be your pseudo possession types

Losing Bosa and Allen doesn't mean the team needs to take a step backward. It just means Telesco and Staley have to do their jobs better.

The main reasons I advocate for trading Bosa and moving on from Allen are not about the 2023 season. Its about the 2023 through 2026 seasons and staying somewhat even or ahead of the cap.

MW is not a possession receiver. Palmer is, but he's not nearly as good as Allen. If you cut Allen and don't find a suitable replacement the offense will suffer just as
it did this year. We need not go for a 1::1 replacement with Allen. Getting an elite TE would do the trick. I'd still try to find another WR in the 3-4th rounds. Bandy's, not it.

As for Bosa, he surely did not make much of a difference once he came back. But he claims he was playing on one leg and getting held. Unless he's traded we
really cannot afford to cut him. It's a $38M dead cap number by doing so. That's out of the question. Best guess is that his contract gets restructured.

Allen may end up being a cap casualty, but not Bosa.

As for the draft, if Bijan is as good as the message board claims it may be difficult to pass on him at #21. But TT drafts for best fit at position of need and
I'm not so sure RB is high on the list. We can use help at LB, CB and OT. So I wouldn't discount those positions in the 1st.