More inaccurate reporting about Norv?

[Zot]

The only thing that matters to me is that we got worse every year Norv was here, except for '09 (when he 'Schottenheimered' a playoff game at home). He was 'bailed' out in '08 by Rivers heroics/Denver implosion, in '10 by the 'excuse' of poor special teams play, and in '11 because fans cheered loud at the Ravens game.

The common denominator is weak ownership. Norv is what he is, and we got exactly that. As supportive most of us tried to be, most expected the end result.

Exactly! He came in when we were arguably the most talented team in football and over the years reduced us to one of the crappiest. The way I see it, Norv took our "Ferrari" and stripped out all the gears, bent the frame, smashed the windows, filled the gas tank with sugar, and finally filled the seating compartment with cement...Let's just say, "I'm really glad Turner is no longer a Charger."

And yes, this is only opinion.

[Formula 21]

The outstanding drafts also disappeared.

[homeless simpson]

Eventually the warranty runs out and the car starts breaking down. only a very few cars stay in good running condition for long periods of time.

[Steve]

True, building the franchise and then keeping it at a high level is tough, but that is the gig.

To me, what I hope we do is set up the new front office so that the whole team is built around finding and developing new talent. You are correct, that you can't just keep having drafts where tons of new players step in and have an immediate impact. Once the roster is more set, it just becomes harder. But you can get to the point where 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year players are coming in and developing, so that as players leave, we have the replacements ready to go (more or less).

Norv's record
11-5
8-8
13-3
9-7
8-8
7-9

I understand what people are talking about when they say we got worse and worse, just remember, the stats don't bear that out as well as you might think it did. The 13-3 year, in particular.

[SDFan]

The outstanding drafts also disappeared.

that theme is greatly exaggerrated. The early roster was restocked with FAs like Flutie, Foley, Goff and we drafted in the top 10 a couple times producing guys like LT and Jammer and there was room and incentive to take chances on guys like Gates and Dielman and coach them up. The trade of Sheli for Rivers, MErriman and Slit Boy was the icing on the cake. Then things changed: As a perennial playoff team we drafted at the end of rounds often and the "starters" on offense and defense were mostly entrenched every year and AJ was drafting for depth and an occasional "need" position more than restocking. He had the luxury of taking flyers on guys with talent but injury history (Buster Davis, Cro) and for the future (English, Cason) and traded "extra" picks to move up for guys like Weddle and Hester. With the switch to NOrv, the coaching up stopped at the same time injuries began piling up and top picks never got on the field much to replace departing FAs. AJ's last couple drafts were on par with the early drafts for bringing in more NFL ready talent as the restocking phase began again.

[Den60]

True, building the franchise and then keeping it at a high level is tough, but that is the gig.

To me, what I hope we do is set up the new front office so that the whole team is built around finding and developing new talent. You are correct, that you can't just keep having drafts where tons of new players step in and have an immediate impact. Once the roster is more set, it just becomes harder. But you can get to the point where 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year players are coming in and developing, so that as players leave, we have the replacements ready to go (more or less).

Norv's record
11-5
8-8
13-3
9-7
8-8
7-9

I understand what people are talking about when they say we got worse and worse, just remember, the stats don't bear that out as well as you might think it did. The 13-3 year, in particular.

Perhaps we should collate that data with other significant data like:

The decline of LT (especially significant in conjunction with letting Turner walk to keep LT).
Gates' injury and his decline in production/dominance.
Merriman's rather rapid exit from NFL superstardom.
The loss of Jamal.
The loss of Sproles.
The loss of Dielman.
The loss of McNeill.

Those are 7 (8 when talking about Turner) players that were often mentioned when talking about the "most talented team in football." I did leave VJ off the list because I don't think that would have changed much for us last year but you could add that name to the list as well.

[Steve]

You could also take the opposite view, and say that it is the lower level, more average talent that has been dropping to. In Norv's 1st (or Marty's last), we had a lot of starters who weren't stars, but played a pretty good game. Under Norv, guys like Goff were never replaced. Vasquez kinda, sorta, eventually got around to replacing him, but it took several seasons, and I don't think there is anyone who can argue that he was somewhat of a disappointment. Guy with that size and athletic ability should have been a better player, but never seemed to get there (with us).

Either way, high end, or just general erosion of talent, that is as big a part as anything Norv did in all the other aspects of his tenure as coach. Coaches are always going to get seconded guessed on game day, that is just part of the deal. I actually think Norv did OK in those situations. But if you don't have all the horses and you keep trying to cover things up, there is only so much you can accompish. You will never have a perfect roster, but better talent helps hide other deficiencies. And there are a lot of calls in games where Tv guys or fans say it is such a great call, but it was a horrible call, a horrible execution (in general), But one guy makes one great block/catch/tackle... whatever, and the coach and rest of the team looks great.

Norv was a fail as a coach because he and AJ may have communicated better then when Marty was coach, they sure didn't get as good results in terms of developing players.

[Den60]

You could also take the opposite view, and say that it is the lower level, more average talent that has been dropping to. In Norv's 1st (or Marty's last), we had a lot of starters who weren't stars, but played a pretty good game. Under Norv, guys like Goff were never replaced. Vasquez kinda, sorta, eventually got around to replacing him, but it took several seasons, and I don't think there is anyone who can argue that he was somewhat of a disappointment. Guy with that size and athletic ability should have been a better player, but never seemed to get there (with us).

Either way, high end, or just general erosion of talent, that is as big a part as anything Norv did in all the other aspects of his tenure as coach. Coaches are always going to get seconded guessed on game day, that is just part of the deal. I actually think Norv did OK in those situations. But if you don't have all the horses and you keep trying to cover things up, there is only so much you can accompish. You will never have a perfect roster, but better talent helps hide other deficiencies. And there are a lot of calls in games where Tv guys or fans say it is such a great call, but it was a horrible call, a horrible execution (in general), But one guy makes one great block/catch/tackle... whatever, and the coach and rest of the team looks great.

Norv was a fail as a coach because he and AJ may have communicated better then when Marty was coach, they sure didn't get as good results in terms of developing players.

What players were you hoping would get developed better then?

[Steve]

Just from one draft, Martin, Green and Vasquez where all guys I felt like had a chance to come in and become good players for us. For the most part, I think a most of the players we drafted under AJ. I didn't think that most of them were bad picks, just that they never developed.

Obviously some don't work out. Ellison got cut because of the drug thing, and while it is unfortunate, non-football things happen and are wasted picks (people). I didn't feel like the drafting is what changed that much, it was more about guys just not getting "it". Under Marty, he ran a more limited amount of stuff, but guys got better in a hurry. Norv, not so much, because he did a lot of stuff. We had a lot of plays and we asked players to do a ton of stuff. And when the 2nd team offense isn't getting better, the 2nd team D doesn't get the looks and practice they need. And then everyone doesn't get better.

Listening to the interviews on 1090, the thing that sticks out is how guys seem to be catching on quickly. The starters always get good press, so that part doesn't sound different to me. A couple of people have noted how the 1st teams look about normal, but the 2nd and 3rd team guys are not making the usual boneheaded mistakes that plague most teams.

[Den60]

Just from one draft, Martin, Green and Vasquez where all guys I felt like had a chance to come in and become good players for us. For the most part, I think a most of the players we drafted under AJ. I didn't think that most of them were bad picks, just that they never developed.

Obviously some don't work out. Ellison got cut because of the drug thing, and while it is unfortunate, non-football things happen and are wasted picks (people). I didn't feel like the drafting is what changed that much, it was more about guys just not getting "it". Under Marty, he ran a more limited amount of stuff, but guys got better in a hurry. Norv, not so much, because he did a lot of stuff. We had a lot of plays and we asked players to do a ton of stuff. And when the 2nd team offense isn't getting better, the 2nd team D doesn't get the looks and practice they need. And then everyone doesn't get better.

Listening to the interviews on 1090, the thing that sticks out is how guys seem to be catching on quickly. The starters always get good press, so that part doesn't sound different to me. A couple of people have noted how the 1st teams look about normal, but the 2nd and 3rd team guys are not making the usual boneheaded mistakes that plague most teams.

Vasquez seemed to be valued from where I sit, well in Denver for $7M/year. Green was a 4th round pick and I have to say that Ohnswteeter was a third - and I have yet to see someone on here who has him on our roster this year. Not sure what you expected from him regardless from the context I added to the discussion. Martin had a long way to go when he was signed here and he got signed fairly quickly in FA (and we got worse in the process). Ellison was a 6th round pick.

Come on, fella, you can do better than this... can't you?

[Steve]

So every one of those guys is as good as they could have been? Every draft pick, basically underachieved, and it is the same GM and scouts that we had before. You aren't going to hit on everyone but we basically hit on no one. And to say it is all about the GM just seems stupid to me.

But name the guys who did develop under Norv? Weddle is pretty much it. Some of the others played closer to their potential, but not many (Vasquez).

The Vasquez salary is a pretty weak argument IMHO, because a lot of people think he is being overpaid by a team who is overpaying several players in a desperate bid for a SB this season.

[Beerman]

So every one of those guys is as good as they could have been? Every draft pick, basically underachieved, and it is the same GM and scouts that we had before. You aren't going to hit on everyone but we basically hit on no one. And to say it is all about the GM just seems stupid to me.

But name the guys who did develop under Norv? Weddle is pretty much it. Some of the others played closer to their potential, but not many (Vasquez).

The Vasquez salary is a pretty weak argument IMHO, because a lot of people think he is being overpaid by a team who is overpaying several players in a desperate bid for a SB this season.

The biggest issue IMO is that the guys just didn't play. We kept signing veterans on cheap 1 or 2 year deals. Our rookies barely played. You can't develop if you don't get on the field. Injuries sure as hell didn't help either. AJ kept thinking he was 1 or 2 players away instead of just adding talented players regardless of need (like he did earlier in his tenure).