Welcome Kenneth Murray LB, Oklahoma

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  • Formula 21
    The Future is Now
    • Jun 2013
    • 16426
    • Republic of San Diego
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    And while I'm on analytics


    Why you should take those combine numbers with a grain of salt



    Leonard Fournette ran fast (4.51) but didn't jump very high (28.5 inches) at the combine. Does it matter? Brian Spurlock/USA TODAY Sports Mar 7, 2017
    • Brian BurkeESPN Analytics
    Each year the NFL scouting combine offers troves of rigorously measured data on prospects -- data we would expect really matters in terms of how good a pro athlete can become. Certainly being faster, stronger and more agile than your competition makes it more likely that a player will succeed in the pros. Given the importance of selecting the right players, and with all the advances in sports analytics, you might think this problem would be one of the first and easiest to be solved. So it may surprise you just how difficult it is to find meaningful connections between combine performance and success in the pros.

    Many attempts have been made to discover a formula for the relationship between combine data and player success, and they consistently return the same results, finding very little relevance in the combine measurements. Perhaps the most surprising result is that the combine drills that are seemingly most similar to what a position does on the field -- like the shuttle drill for running backs or the bench press for offensive linemen -- often have the least connection to career outcomes. Of the many analyses I've come across in 10 years of crunching football numbers, the first analysis to find any meaningful connection uses advanced methods with modest success. We've recently been able to improve upon that research here at ESPN, but not without a great deal of effort. It's much harder to detect the signal among the noise than you might expect.

    The tremendous difficulty of finding a connection between athletic abilities and performance in the NFL is something of a mystery. We should naturally expect better athletes to become, well ... better pro athletes. After all, if you and I and other random fans were invited to the combine, we'd likely do quite poorly at the drills. And our chances of making an NFL roster would be accordingly very poor, so certainly there must be a strong underlying link between athleticism and on-field performance.

    Nonmeasurable skills are as important to a player's future success as many of the combine's rigorous measurables.

    To be invited to the combine, a prospect must have measurable talent, nonmeasurable skills, or likely some combination of both, and must be strong enough to play well in college and catch the eye of NFL scouts. Measurable talent includes things like speed, strength or agility, while the nonmeasurable skills involve things like technique, work ethic, ability to read keys and anticipate plays, or the ability to learn the playbook. When I hear scouts and analysts using trite terms like "football IQ," "vision" or "ball skills," they're most likely referring to the vague nonmeasurable part of a player's set of attributes.


    The fact that a prospect is invited creates a selection bias in the combine results. The guys with relatively low measurables tend to have higher nonmeasurables, or else they likely wouldn't have been invited. And the guys with low nonmeasurables tend to have high measurables for the same reason. Measurable talent and nonmeasurable skills tend to be cross-wired, given the fact that someone has been invited to the combine. Once players have been drafted and enter the league, the low-measurable ones will tend to outperform their combine stats while the high-measureable ones will tend to underperform them. This phenomenon is why we don't see a clear correlation between measurable combine performance and pro success.

    This diagram may help explain what I mean. It's symbolic of the underlying concept, and not meant to depict exact numbers. (They're called "nonmeasurables" for a reason.) The horizontal axis represents measurable (combine) talent, and the vertical axis represents nonmeasurable skills. To be invited to the combine, a player must have some combination of both types of abilities, which is depicted by the white area. Prospects with low measurables (blue) tend to have higher nonmeasurables, while the prospects with high measurables (red) tend to have lower nonmeasurables.

    In statistics, this phenomenon is known as Berkson's paradox, but I tend to think of it as the Boldin paradox, as Anquan Boldin might be the epitome of high nonmeasurables and low measurables. Boldin's 40-yard dash was clocked at 4.72, dead last for wide receivers at the 2003 combine, yet he continues a fantastically successful career to this day. Among his 2003 classmates, only Andre Johnson's career production exceeds Boldin's. Boldin compensates for his lesser speed with his renowned route-running and pass-catching skills -- his nonmeasurable (but observable) skills. It's likely why he can continue to play the receiver position well into his mid-30s. His nonmeasurable skills don't diminish with age nearly as quickly as his measurable talents, especially speed.

    One common manifestation of Berkson's paradox is in the dating pool. Suppose you'd date someone who has only some minimal combination of being attractive and having a nice personality. The paradox helps explain why the ones with the best personalities don't appear so attractive, and the attractive ones don't always seem so pleasant.

    So when poring over the combine results, don't get too excited about the blazing fast numbers some players put up. Chances are their skills aren't as strong as the players with more modest numbers. And the receiver who ran a 4.7 40-yard dash might just have the best hands and run the best routes in a generation. After all, there's a reason he was invited.
    Now, if you excuse me, I have some Charger memories to suppress.
    The Wasted Decade is done.
    Build Back Better.

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    • Formula 21
      The Future is Now
      • Jun 2013
      • 16426
      • Republic of San Diego
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      Wrong thread, but this is KJ Hill

      So when poring over the combine results, don't get too excited about the blazing fast numbers some players put up. Chances are their skills aren't as strong as the players with more modest numbers. And the receiver who ran a 4.7 40-yard dash might just have the best hands and run the best routes in a generation. After all, there's a reason he was invited.
      And the guy with measureables and non-measureables - Kenneth Murray
      Now, if you excuse me, I have some Charger memories to suppress.
      The Wasted Decade is done.
      Build Back Better.

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      • 21&500
        Bolt Spit-Baller
        • Sep 2018
        • 10769
        • A Whale's Vajayjay
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        so which is it fellas
        100mph with occasional misses
        or 95% with "better form"?
        doesn't that also depend on LB position/role?
        Chargers vs. Everyone

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        • pacstud
          Black Belt Poster
          • Sep 2018
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          Originally posted by Steve View Post

          No this is where some football people are just plain stupid. Big plays allowed go along with the missed tackles. When defensive players give up those missed tackles the offense is getting a free chunk play (not all but many). Big plays given up are difficult, if not impossible to overcome. We no longer have an offense that can make up for those kinds of mistakes, so being fundamentally sound is the key.

          Let's ask Jatavis Brown how his career has gone with the missed tackles. If Murray doesn't improve his tackling, he won't be playing in the NFL very long. He has to get better at it.
          I have no problem with your last statement, and I don't feel that statement makes mine untrue. You take your slow ass sure tacklers and I'll take my fast guys and I'll win every time.

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          • like54ninjas
            Registered Charger Fan
            • Oct 2017
            • 8211
            • Great White North
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            Originally posted by pacstud View Post

            I have no problem with your last statement, and I don't feel that statement makes mine untrue. You take your slow ass sure tacklers and I'll take my fast guys and I'll win every time.
            I concur.
            My 2021 Adopt-A-Bolt List

            MikeDub
            K9
            Nasir
            Tillery
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            • Formula 21
              The Future is Now
              • Jun 2013
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              And by the way, Kyle Duggar, S and Justin Madubuike, DT for Kenneth Murray turned out to be the trade.

              A potentially solid safety and a rotational DT for a potential star. I have to go with Murray on that one, if only because the modern ILB position is so hard to fill.
              Now, if you excuse me, I have some Charger memories to suppress.
              The Wasted Decade is done.
              Build Back Better.

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              • like54ninjas
                Registered Charger Fan
                • Oct 2017
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                Originally posted by Formula 21 View Post
                And by the way, Kyle Duggar, S and Justin Madubuike, DT for Kenneth Murray turned out to be the trade.

                A potentially solid safety and a rotational DT for a potential star. I have to go with Murray on that one, if only because the modern ILB position is so hard to fill.
                Murray is an elite prospect.
                Duggar has a very high ceiling and Madubuike is a solid IDL disrupter.

                I had 13 prospects with elite grades and K9 was #9. This was a great trade for the Bolts.
                My 2021 Adopt-A-Bolt List

                MikeDub
                K9
                Nasir
                Tillery
                Parham
                Reed

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                • blueman
                  Registered Charger Fan
                  • Jun 2013
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                  Originally posted by like54ninjas View Post

                  I concur.
                  Been watching slow lose for the Bolts for years, I’ll take fast now, please and thank you.

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                  • like54ninjas
                    Registered Charger Fan
                    • Oct 2017
                    • 8211
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                    My 2021 Adopt-A-Bolt List

                    MikeDub
                    K9
                    Nasir
                    Tillery
                    Parham
                    Reed

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                    • Steve
                      Administrator
                      • Jun 2013
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                      • South Carolina
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                      Originally posted by pacstud View Post

                      I have no problem with your last statement, and I don't feel that statement makes mine untrue. You take your slow ass sure tacklers and I'll take my fast guys and I'll win every time.
                      You are so wrong it isn't even funny.

                      When you played and/or coached before, did any of the coaches and/or players ever say anything about being under control. Because that is what they meant. Think back to those days and jog your memory.

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                      • blueman
                        Registered Charger Fan
                        • Jun 2013
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                        Being under control means no speed? Who knew.

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                        • wu-dai clan
                          Smooth Operation
                          • May 2017
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                          Originally posted by Formula 21 View Post
                          And by the way, Kyle Duggar, S and Justin Madubuike, DT for Kenneth Murray turned out to be the trade.

                          A potentially solid safety and a rotational DT for a potential star. I have to go with Murray on that one, if only because the modern ILB position is so hard to fill.
                          I am painfully aware of this fact. :help:
                          I projected Duggar to WILL/NLB for us...coverage being so important.
                          It must be noted that Belicheat signed Adrian Phillips and drafted Duggar @ #37.
                          We got Herbert, Murray and Alohi (AL sees AP traits in this guy.)
                          TJ Smith DT Arkansas is a sleeper for us.
                          His sidekick Agim was someone we ZOOMed, if you remember.
                          Madubuike is very good.
                          I will not pick at nits here.
                          AL likes Murray's leadership. and so will I.
                          Question re Murray...MIKE or WILL ?
                          It sounds like there will be lots of flexibility, at least at first, amongst our LB population.
                          We do not play modern football.

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