Electric Cars vs Gas Cars

[equivocation]

Technology based energy generation has improved by an order of magnitude in the last decade. I wouldn't bet on that stopping. Main impediments right now are storage and an aging and obsolete grid. Both can improve.

[like54ninjas]

Technology based energy generation has improved by an order of magnitude in the last decade. I wouldn't bet on that stopping. Main impediments right now are storage and an aging and obsolete grid. Both can improve.

Well said.
Why look back to energy technologies from a 150 years ago that pollute?
We have better, cleaner, scalable technologies to move on to. Anyone want to back to no indoor plumbing, no toilet paper, no refrigeration, hunting/gathering your individual food, or hand pinned letters that that weeks to arrive? Fuck we don’t even go into the grocery store anymore. Easier to get it delivered or curbside pick-up.
I prefer to keep moving forward with the best ideas and technologies of the future. We build forward not backward.

As the older more conservative generations die off there is always less bluster to beneficial change.
Remember your parents, grandparents, or great grandparents thought rock-n-roll was the devil’s music, porn should be illegal, or any number of other social things that have proven to no large detriment to society.
It’s rarely about the facts or evidence but almost entirely about preconceived notions that already exist in that individual.
I for one haven’t listened to much new music over the last 20-25 years. My tastes stayed from my younger days and as music evolved into its next forms my brain said no thank you. This doesn’t make the newer music styles worse more just my internal preference stopped evolving.

Here’s a few ideas for California or any coastal area.
- Build desalination plants to help eliminate the drought conditions and help control sea level rise. Can also build interstate pipelines (repurpose old oil pipelines) to move clean, fresh water throughout the doubt stricken West/Midwest.
- These same desalination plants could be built on former offshore oil rigs. These could be retrofitted with deep water and wind turbines for generating energy to power them and add to the sustainable power grid.
- Use the immense unpopulated desert regions to build massive solar/wind power plants. Commercial scale solid state battery technology will greatly increase storage capacity capability.

For fuck sake, I hate the summer football doldrums.

[powderblueboy]

Or get used to walking. Ca already can't meet elec demands. Never mind the demand for land & materials involved for gen & batts. Better get that hand crank gen while they are still available.

Or get used to biking, or using motorcycles....nothing wrong with either approach.

Or build up a more accessible public transit system.

We spend how much each year to ensure control over international oil production & sales?
1 - 2 trillion dollars?

And then there is the cost of domestic production, transportation, storage....not to mention the fantastic cost of treating respiratory diseases each year.

Why is every penny spent on generating power through electricity suddenly important to you?
Will it be helpful to you that a lot of the new electricity production needed will come from fossil fuels?

[like54ninjas]

Or get used to biking, or using motorcycles....nothing wrong with either approach.

Or build up a more accessible public transit system.

We spend how much each year to ensure control over international oil production & sales?
1 - 2 trillion dollars?

And then there is the cost of domestic production, transportation, storage....not to mention the fantastic cost of treating respiratory diseases each year.

Why is every penny spent on generating power through electricity suddenly important to you?
Will it be helpful to you that a lot of the new electricity production needed will come from fossil fuels?

:exparrot:

:toyou:

[FoutsFan]

Or get used to biking, or using motorcycles....nothing wrong with either approach.

Or build up a more accessible public transit system.

We spend how much each year to ensure control over international oil production & sales?
1 - 2 trillion dollars?

And then there is the cost of domestic production, transportation, storage....not to mention the fantastic cost of treating respiratory diseases each year.

Why is every penny spent on generating power through electricity suddenly important to you?
Will it be helpful to you that a lot of the new electricity production needed will come from fossil fuels?

I live in a town that has the second biggest wind farm in CA. They kill birds, endangered or not, makes no difference but they are exempt from punishment. They kill bats by the truck loads. We have large apple orchards, cherry orchards and other agricultural farms. With the bat geocide the farmers have to use double or triple the pesticides to do the job that the bats used to do. The wind turbines only last for a decade then they have to be recycled. Its a eco disaster on its own.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-05/wind-turbine-blades-can-t-be-recycled-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills

Eclectic cars are pretty scary though. I cannot speak for the Fords or other brands but Tesla's are incredibly dangerous. According to NTSB, compared to other luxury cars in their category people die at about 3.5 times more in Teslas than other luxury cars. This is not the crash safety data but real world crashes. I would highly recommend against a Tesla, unless safety is not important.

https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-433670ddde17

[equivocation]

You're using data from 2014 thru 2016 to try to describe 2025.

Everything has drawbacks. Insisting on new things being perfect is illogical. Status quo certainly isn't perfect.

It doesnt even matter though. Electric car motors are up to about 94% efficient. Combined cycle natural gas plants are ~60% efficient. Internal conbustion engines engines on the road today average about 30% efficient and aren't going up. You're just on the wrong side of the energy and cost equations long term. Tesla is not a good comp for anything. It's niche.

[like54ninjas]

I live in a town that has the second biggest wind farm in CA. They kill birds, endangered or not, makes no difference but they are exempt from punishment. They kill bats by the truck loads. We have large apple orchards, cherry orchards and other agricultural farms. With the bat geocide the farmers have to use double or triple the pesticides to do the job that the bats used to do. The wind turbines only last for a decade then they have to be recycled. Its a eco disaster on its own.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...p-in-landfills

Eclectic cars are pretty scary though. I cannot speak for the Fords or other brands but Tesla's are incredibly dangerous. According to NTSB, compared to other luxury cars in their category people die at about 3.5 times more in Teslas than other luxury cars. This is not the crash safety data but real world crashes. I would highly recommend against a Tesla, unless safety is not important.

https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/...r-433670ddde17

I do see the disadvantages of a traditional “old world” wind turbines. Bats do seem to take the most damage of flying creatures. Still better than oil spills, IMO.
The future is in bladeless or circular blade technologies that are already in existence.
Check out Vortex a bladeless wind energy system.
I can’t remember the name but a Utah based company makes a sealed internal wind energy system that has directional intakes to not harm wildlife and it produces more energy than traditional windmills.
Many exciting areas of this industry. Lots of high paying jobs in these fields of work.

Your second article is from 3 years ago and would need actual apples to apples evidence about Tesla’s safety record. The comparable models are very misleading. TESLA only sold the open top roadster from 2009-2012, Model S starting in 2012, and the Model X starting in 2015. They also didn’t state if they applied all that extra work to come up with their total TESLA fatalities to all the other luxury makes/models. Not really apples to apples as they try to promote.

SolarCity itself was a terrible purchase because he used TESLA stock shares as the purchase medium. Those TESLA shares are up about 400% so not a wise method of payment by Musk.
Musk’s solar projects have continued to flushing over the past 3 years so the facts don’t seem to agree with the articles take. His biggest contribution thus far has been in the strides of energy storage systems. The home based Solar Wall and the commercial size systems they’ve developed and deployed around the world.

[chargeroo]

Let’s not open up that can of worms.

Hope you had a great Father’s Day weekend Roo!

Thanks for that

My son came from CA and my daughter came from PA. First time in 18 years we were all together. I suppose it was because of my health but I'll take it. It's nice to have them both visit at the same time.

Interesting discussion above.

[FoutsFan]

I do see the disadvantages of a traditional “old world” wind turbines. Bats do seem to take the most damage of flying creatures. Still better than oil spills, IMO.
The future is in bladeless or circular blade technologies that are already in existence.
Check out Vortex a bladeless wind energy system.
I can’t remember the name but a Utah based company makes a sealed internal wind energy system that has directional intakes to not harm wildlife and it produces more energy than traditional windmills.
Many exciting areas of this industry. Lots of high paying jobs in these fields of work.

Your second article is from 3 years ago and would need actual apples to apples evidence about Tesla’s safety record. The comparable models are very misleading. TESLA only sold the open top roadster from 2009-2012, Model S starting in 2012, and the Model X starting in 2015. They also didn’t state if they applied all that extra work to come up with their total TESLA fatalities to all the other luxury makes/models. Not really apples to apples as they try to promote.

SolarCity itself was a terrible purchase because he used TESLA stock shares as the purchase medium. Those TESLA shares are up about 400% so not a wise method of payment by Musk.
Musk’s solar projects have continued to flushing over the past 3 years so the facts don’t seem to agree with the articles take. His biggest contribution thus far has been in the strides of energy storage systems. The home based Solar Wall and the commercial size systems they’ve developed and deployed around the world.

I do not care much one way or another regarding solar city. The article was older and not the one I used for a report on Tesla I could not find it but it had some of the data that was pertinent. Another thing that was terrible was California intentionally hid a lot of the data on Tesla crashes. Not cool. I dont care one way or another regarding electric cars they are not my cup of tea but the Teslas in specific are very dangerous cars. People should be aware. I don't think the issues they have are electric car specific but Tesla themselves.

Good to see improvement with the wind turbines because the ones they are using now bring more bad to the table than good.

[DragonIce]

There's no way in hell I'd consider an electric vehicle other than Tesla. They are way ahead and have far more experience.

As for Tesla crashes...95% of that is dumb people mis-using auto-drive feature.

The F-150 Lightning will be delayed, perhaps years. Mark it.

[FoutsFan]

You're using data from 2014 thru 2016 to try to describe 2025.

Everything has drawbacks. Insisting on new things being perfect is illogical. Status quo certainly isn't perfect.

It doesnt even matter though. Electric car motors are up to about 94% efficient. Combined cycle natural gas plants are ~60% efficient. Internal conbustion engines engines on the road today average about 30% efficient and aren't going up. You're just on the wrong side of the energy and cost equations long term. Tesla is not a good comp for anything. It's niche.

People dying at triple the rate is not a "drawback" its a disaster. Even if the data from that article is old, it is still happening, then you include the deaths and accidents from the self driving. Not a fan of Tesla. My uncle works at a Tesla plant in Nevada. He maintains the robotics for the factory. I asked him if he is getting a Tesla. He said no way in hell.

[equivocation]

People dying at triple the rate is not a "drawback" its a disaster. Even if the data from that article is old, it is still happening, then you include the deaths and accidents from the self driving. Not a fan of Tesla. My uncle works at a Tesla plant in Nevada. He maintains the robotics for the factory. I asked him if he is getting a Tesla. He said no way in hell.

Old, tiny sample size (in 2014-2017 Tesla barely had any production or sales, average marketshare of less than 0.1%), improper comparison (Model 3 is not a luxury car), and they uniquely take the time to "fix" the stats regarding Tesla and not the other manufacturers. I'm not going to take the time to make sure these adjustments are correct, but they did require many, many words (a bad cause requires many words). And Tesla is not the only EV manufacturer so focusing only on them is nonsensical.

Unless you're going to give a physical reason motors/batteries kill people more than engines/gasoline, there is nothing to see here.