And With The 5th Pick Of The NFL Draft Chargers Select....Discussion

[powderblueboy]

So by your view.....if Ben Herbert makes our guys stronger and they add muscle and made leaner and get a little bigger you are saying he is slowing down our team? I would very much disagree with that! Also Bowers turned 21 in Dec.

I dont mean to be insulting at all, but Id say you havent played sports if thats your take on it.

In Bowers case, his new muscles and leaner mass makes him incapable of running 40 yards without tweaking something.

But I'm not meaning to insult those who want the Chargers to draft him.

[Ghost of Quacksaw]

as a guy that not only doesn't watch so much football, let alone film, 'tis always a laugh for me when I read what peoples say about the film, and that are watching the exact same film !!

recall watching Vita Vea a fair bit coz I took alotta grief for pimping him, and peoples pointing out that he wasn't all that coz o' this nor that, and.... would always wonder how they missed the incessant double and triple teams, and yet he would still get pressure on the QB/collapse the pocket, and.... on top of that, the prospect that other posters were pimping rarely even got double teamed, yet they held Vea to the same standards even tho it was a way of life for him ??

and again, don't watch a ton of film, but watching Fuaga, just don't see how peoples don't see the difference between him and the other two tackles.... dude has billy clubs for hands.... defenders don't come into his inner circle if they don't have to.... all it takes is a little palm of the hand shove from Fuaga, and defenders keep their distance, and.... when someone (like Latu) does get around Fuaga, it's not so timely a maneuver, as they've def had to pay the piper, and couldn't imagine what it's like going up against Taliese for four quarters.... god awful eye would guess.

he is such the better pick @tackle than the others, 'specially given we are now Harbo/GRo brand football.

I loved Vita Vea! I also wanted Star Lotuleilei over D.J. Fluker.

[Boltjolt]

In Bowers case, his new muscles and leaner mass makes him incapable of running 40 yards without tweaking something.

But I'm not meaning to insult those who want the Chargers to draft him.

[wu-dai clan]

And here's the IPA sippin' son of a gun.
With editorial retort by Brandon Thorn of Trench Warfare, who watches more OL tape than all of us combined.
Do you realize how dipstick a comment Matt Miller made ?

[21&500]

Very compelling breakdown by Titan fans.

[Ghost of Quacksaw]

I'm not nervous at all about whether Hortiz and his staff will correctly assess Joe Alt's fit-- good, bad, or in between-- with the Chargers.

To me, though, it's generally not the greatest idea to take a player who was very successful at his college position, but then move him to a different one when he arrives at his NFL team. Not that there aren't legit exceptions to this 'rule', but... Come on, we're talking about investing a Top 5 draft pick!

And since left tackle is the financial penthouse of the O-line positions, I wouldn't expect a top prospect like Alt to welcome the idea of being moved to a spot with a lesser pay ceiling. And for the same reason, you wouldn't want to slap Slater in the face by doing the same to HIM in an attempt to accommodate Alt.

I just don't see ANY angle from which it looks like drafting Joe Alt at #5 is a sensible move.

[blueman]

I'm not nervous at all about whether Hortiz and his staff will correctly assess Joe Alt's fit-- good, bad, or in between-- with the Chargers.

To me, though, it's generally not the greatest idea to take a player who was very successful at his college position, but then move him to a different one when he arrives at his NFL team. Not that there aren't legit exceptions to this 'rule', but... Come on, we're talking about investing a Top 5 draft pick!

And since left tackle is the financial penthouse of the O-line positions, I wouldn't expect a top prospect like Alt to welcome the idea of being moved to a spot with a lesser pay ceiling. And for the same reason, you wouldn't want to slap Slater in the face by doing the same to HIM in an attempt to accommodate Alt.

I just don't see ANY angle from which it looks like drafting Joe Alt at #5 is a sensible move.

Re moving positions: only makes some sense if there’s enough time for the player to acclimate to the new role. Cuts across most positions, see QJ last year. You want to hit the bricks running, put the player in the best position to succeed.

[Maniaque 6]

Georgia TE Brock Bowers 2023 Highlights ᴴᴰ (youtube.com)

You want a TE ? a RB ? a WR ? a FB ?
You got all of it.
It is my choice at 5 unless a great trade down.

[21&500]

Georgia TE Brock Bowers 2023 Highlights ᴴᴰ (youtube.com)

You want a TE ? a RB ? a WR ? a FB ?
You got all of it.
It is my choice at 5 unless a great trade down.

Here is all his 2023 targets:

All 2022 targets:

All 2021 targets:

[DerwinBosa]

I'm not nervous at all about whether Hortiz and his staff will correctly assess Joe Alt's fit-- good, bad, or in between-- with the Chargers.

To me, though, it's generally not the greatest idea to take a player who was very successful at his college position, but then move him to a different one when he arrives at his NFL team. Not that there aren't legit exceptions to this 'rule', but... Come on, we're talking about investing a Top 5 draft pick!

And since left tackle is the financial penthouse of the O-line positions, I wouldn't expect a top prospect like Alt to welcome the idea of being moved to a spot with a lesser pay ceiling. And for the same reason, you wouldn't want to slap Slater in the face by doing the same to HIM in an attempt to accommodate Alt.

I just don't see ANY angle from which it looks like drafting Joe Alt at #5 is a sensible move.

Alt has said he will play right tackle in the NFL if the team that drafts him asks him to. Plenty of left tackles in college have switched to the right, including perhaps the best offensive tackle in the NFL right now--Penei Sewell. I don't think Sewell is going to have a problem getting paid.

[Ghost of Quacksaw]

Georgia TE Brock Bowers 2023 Highlights ᴴᴰ (youtube.com)

You want a TE ? a RB ? a WR ? a FB ?
You got all of it.
It is my choice at 5 unless a great trade down.

Yeah, but... do you think it will be Hortiz' choice? Over Marvin Harrison, Jr.?

I just don't see that happening, without a trade down.

Bowers would be an excellent consolation prize after a trade down that netted some additional draft capital. EXCELLENT. Just... not at #5. IMO, he won't be the best guy on the board at #5, but three or four picks later? He *would* be.

We all have our prospect crushes, but we ultimately have to figure out what Hortiz is thinking.

If you look at Daniel Jeremiah's most recent Top 50, here's what his Top 10 looks like:

Rank
1
Caleb Williams
USC · QB · Junior

Williams has average height and a thick/muscular build. He is a natural thrower and delivers the ball with accuracy/velocity from a variety of platforms and arm angles. He can power the ball into tight windows while stationary or on the move. He can also finesse the ball when needed. He has lightning-quick hands in the RPO game. He’s a dynamic runner and makes defenders look silly in space. He can run by you, through you or make you miss. He did fall into some bad habits at USC during the 2023 season. He hunts big plays and always looks to exhaust plays with his legs instead of taking checkdowns. Also, he can get too loose with the ball when creating, swinging it wildly, which leads to fumbles. His creativity makes him special, but he will need to play more on schedule at the next level. Overall, Williams has areas in which he needs to improve, but he has franchise-altering upside.

Rank
2
Marvin Harrison Jr.
Ohio State · WR · Junior

Harrison has ideal size, speed and production. Built like a power forward, he plays with a blend of physicality and explosiveness. He uses his upper-body strength to power through press coverage. He's a smooth/fluid route runner and closes the cushion quickly. He gets on the toes of cornerbacks before sharply breaking off his route. He can tap into another gear when the ball goes up and he tracks over his shoulder with ease. He knows how to use his big frame to wall off and shield defenders. Harrison has a huge catch radius, but he did have some contact drops in traffic this fall. After the catch, he relies on speed and physicality more than elusiveness. Overall, Harrison is a prototypical No. 1 receiver and should enjoy immediate NFL success.

Rank
3
Rome Odunze
Washington · WR · Senior

Odunze is a big, athletic wideout with exceptional hands. He can play outside or in the slot. He is refined and polished in everything he does on the field. He uses a variety of releases at the line of scrimmage and is a clean route runner. He uses his strength to lean into defenders before separating out of the break point. He thrives in traffic, possessing the ability to pluck the football and absorb big shots over the middle of the field. He makes some incredible adjustments on poorly thrown balls. He tracks naturally over his shoulder. After the catch, he is very tough to bring down and has some nifty make-miss ability. He plays with a ton of passion and energy. Overall, Odunze is a complete player and reminds me of Larry Fitzgerald coming out of college.

Rank
4
Malik Nabers
LSU · WR · Junior

Nabers is a dynamic receiver with outstanding competitiveness and production. He explodes off the line in his release, creating immediate separation. He sets up defenders before snapping off his route. He isn't afraid to work in the middle of the field and has strong hands to finish through contact. When working back to the quarterback, he prefers to let the ball travel into his body, but his drops are limited. He can scoop low throws off his shoes and easily adjusts to balls on his back hip. He does a lot of damage on slot fades, where he uses his speed to win early, and he tracks the ball with ease. After the catch, he explodes through tackles and also has a nasty stiff arm. Overall, Nabers is an electric playmaker who reminds me of DJ Moore with the ball in his hands.

Rank
5
Drake Maye
North Carolina · QB · Sophomore (RS)

Maye has prototypical size, athleticism and arm strength. He has quick feet and quick hands, but his delivery can get long at times. He’s a gifted thrower who drives the ball without much foot space in the pocket (including with defenders hanging on him). He can take pace off the ball on swings and shallow crossers. He has a nice touch on bucket throws down the field. He is athletic to escape and create with his legs and he’s tough to tackle in space. He is ultra-competitive as a runner, something he'll need to dial back a bit at the next level. His pass protection wasn’t good last season at North Carolina and there weren’t always answers in the route to bail him out, which led to some poor decisions and carelessness with the ball. Overall, Maye has some things to clean up, but he has every ingredient to be a top-tier starter at the game's most important position.

Rank
6
Jayden Daniels
LSU · QB · Senior

Daniels is a tall/lean quarterback with exceptional accuracy, decision-making and speed. He is very poised and comfortable in the pocket. He likes to use a rhythm bounce at the top of his drop before settling his feet into the ground and smoothly transferring his weight to throw. He has an extremely quick release and beautiful throwing motion. He throws with anticipation, touch and accuracy. He flashes the ability to manipulate safeties with his eyes to create separation downfield. When he gets pressured, he doesn’t hesitate to explode out of the pocket. He has elite suddenness. He is more of a linear/speed runner than a break-down/make-you-miss type of ball-carrier. He needs to do a better job of protecting himself, though, as he took some huge hits in the games I studied. Overall, Daniels took a massive leap in 2023 and now offers both a high floor and ceiling.

Rank
7
Brock Bowers
Georgia · TE · Junior

Bowers is an undersized tight end with elite speed, strength and playmaking ability. He lined up all over the field at Georgia -- in-line, on the wing, split out and even at running back. He is very sudden in his release, and he uses his upper-body strength to chuck defenders when pressed at the line of scrimmage. He catches a lot of quick-hitters in the flat and he’s a maniac on screens. He attacks the ball in the air and is quick to transition up the field. He has the speed to pull away, but his greatest asset is his tackle-breaking power. He runs through contact without gearing down. He is an effective run blocker when he can get his hands on opponents, but he will get pressed out by longer-armed edge rushers. Overall, Bowers reminds me a lot of George Kittle, and I see him having a similar impact in the NFL.

Rank
8
2
Joe Alt
Notre Dame · OT · Junior

Alt started at left tackle during all three of his seasons at Notre Dame, boasting exceptional size and length for the position. In pass pro, he plays with a wide base and is very under control. He will mix up his pass sets, occasionally jump-setting and stunning opponents. He has the quickness to kick out and cover up outside speed rushers, while also possessing the length to keep power rushers from getting into his chest. He is always very aware and is a valuable helper when uncovered. In the run game, he gets movement on down blocks, looking to finish to and through the whistle. He takes proper angles to the second level, but he's not elite in space when it comes to adjusting to moving targets. Overall, Alt isn't a rare athlete, but his combination of size, instincts and youth (he'll be 21 for his entire rookie season) is easy to bet on.

Rank
9
1
Terrion Arnold
Alabama · CB · Sophomore (RS)

Arnold has ideal size, play speed and instincts for the position. He plays both outside and inside at the nickel. He is effective in press and off coverage. He is fluid to open up and mirror in press. He has plenty of speed to stay in phase on deep balls. From off coverage, he has a quick and smooth pedal, and he doesn't waste steps in his plant drive. He is also effective playing with a side turn and anticipating routes before cutting them off. He has outstanding ball skills, and the production (five interceptions and 17 passes defensed in 2023) reflects his ability. He is a physical, face-up tackler. He doesn't miss tackles in space. Overall, I struggled to find much to criticize in Arnold's play, despite his lack of experience at the position, having arrived at Alabama as a highly regarded safety prospect. He has all the tools and traits to be a Pro Bowl-caliber cornerback.

Rank
10
1
Taliese Fuaga
Oregon State · OT · Senior

Fuaga has outstanding size, power and balance for the position. He lines up at right tackle, but I believe he could play on the left side if necessary. In pass pro, he has quick feet out of his stance and is explosive with his punch. He stuns rushers, stays attached and is always on balance. He is aware versus games and blitzers. In the run game, he is dominant. He uncoils out of his stance to strike and remove defenders over his nose. He creates movement on down blocks and always looks to finish. He is surprisingly nimble to reach and cut off on the back side. He takes good angles working up to the second level and made several de-cleating blocks against linebackers in the games I studied. Overall, I don't see much weakness in Fuaga's game. He has Pro Bowl potential at tackle -- and if needed, could slide inside and play guard.

If Hortiz can negotiate a trade down within the Top 10, he would have a cluster of players, including Bowers, whom he'd be targeting with the later pick. You don't trade down 5 spots, when there's only ONE guy you'd be happy to get at the new spot. I suspect that Joe's cluster would include Bowers, CB Arnold, RT Fuaga, and whichever of the top wideouts might have slipped through the cracks. That's a relatively broad net for success.

How bad would that be, if trading down costs the Bolts Brock Bowers? Well, if you've picked up some additional draft capital and secured either Arnold or Fuaga, just how bad are you supposed to feel?

This draft is SO deep in quality wideouts that passing on a WR at #5 wouldn't be screwing Hortiz' opportunity to get a quality wideout prospect later.

So I don't think Hortiz can afford to fall in love with ONE prospect (Harrison) unless he's convinced MHJ is THAT much better than everybody else.

We probably won't find out until draft night exactly how Joe Hortiz is looking at all this, but we can connect dots and make educated guesses.

I see a trade down, with a cluster of targets, any of whom would address a significant team need.

[blueman]

That’s very sensible, Quack.