Official 2019 Pre Draft Discussion

[Steve]

I'm not saying that he isn't better. That is true of many starting LB in the NFL compared to our backup.

The point is, Wagner would not be the pro bowl caliber LB he is for Seattle, if you put him in the Steelers 34 D and make him go head to head with the OG play after play. He can do it, and he wouldn't be horrible. But he would not be an impact player either.

If we want our LB to improve their level of play, we need 2 things.
1). better players at LB
2). better DT play.

If we don't have BOTH, the results are probably not going to be a lot different than last year.

Our Db were successful against Baltimore in the postseason because the DL pinched the DE and the DT did a solid job taking on the double teams and not letting the OL release, so the DB could hit the gaps. In NE the OL and FB/TE were getting free releases to block down on the DB and LB. You can blame the personnel at LB, but the problems in NE go deeper than just who was playing LB. Nothing went right in Gillette stadium.

The big thing is why would we want to draft a player, particularly with a quality draft pick, and not try to maximize their chances of becoming a quality player? For LB that means you have to get better DT.

[blueman]

Well seems we agree we need better players at LB.

If we bring back Perryman and Luiget as rumored, I would think upgrading the talent at LB would be our biggest need on D still, with DL close behind. Although of all the players mocked to us that I have seen, DL Tillery would be my top choice if he fell to us with LB Mack Wilson a close second.

[Steve]

The one thing to keep in mind with Tillery is that he is not as good of a pass rusher as some of the draft pundits seem to think he is. They are looking at his sack total as a senior, he had 8 sacks, which is excellent for a DT. However, 4 of them came against Stanford's OG's, who he just victimized. People keep making Aaron Donald comparisons, and that is just crap. He is not that type of quick penetrating player. He is a very good DT, and I would love to have him, but he is not the same kind of player as Donald.

If there is a player I most compare him to, it would be Richard Seymour (former Pats and Raiders DT). Tillery is big. He is tall, he has power. He is really starting to learn to use his hands, and he plays with excellent leverage. He does get penetration, but it is because he takes on and defeats blocks. I do think he lacks some of the speed and elite inital quickness to be a great/dominant pass rusher. Tillery's quickness is good, not great. I think he will push the pocket and get a lot of pressures, but is probably not going to be able to finish to put up great sack numbers, but will help others get them (probably). he might get them, because Bosa and Ingram force the QB to step up towards the DT a lot, so he might be in position to finish the QB off.

Again, if you are looking for synergy, getting the right complementary pieces to the guys we have, I think he is an excellent fit. A very good player for the 28th pick, but a player who is a good compliment as a pass rusher on early downs who can deflect passes in the short passing game, and be part of the long yard rush line rotation with Bosa, Ingram, Nwosu, Rochelle and Jones.

[blueman]

Yeah, synergy. That's what I like about both Tillery and Wilson with the Bolts, just think they would mesh perfectly.

[La Costa Boy]

"Synergy".....GOD I love the off season.........

[Steve]

I usually use the term complementary. But the fact is football teams are made up of different pieces that have to work together. Synergy is simply another way of saying that. Either way, adding a great player who doesn't have the right skills is not as important as getting the lesser player with the right skills.

If you had Chris Jones from KC and Aaron Donald from the Rams both playing DT for someone, most fans would spontaneously explode in delight. However, the results would suck on running downs, because both of them tend to over penetrate and leave gaping holes in the D. WHich is why every defensive scheme has 2 DT positions. 1 penetrating DT (under DT or 3 technique) and NT to play the run and take on the double teams.

The obvious retort to this is why not get someone who does both? BEcause those people are very rare. Yes, Suh is big enough to lock on and control any OL as a run defender and quick and agile enough to beat them with quickness, speed or power as a pass rusher. But there is only 1 Suh. Ngata (former Raven/Lions/Philly DT) is another. But that is 2 players like that in the last 10-12 years. If we want to build a roster of players like that, we have to wait a long, long time. And it means learning to live with a lot of lesser players at other positions. At some point, you need good players at every position. So playing a lesser player who fills specific roles is how teams get past this. IT's not ideal, but it is what works.

[Panamamike]

The one thing to keep in mind with Tillery is that he is not as good of a pass rusher as some of the draft pundits seem to think he is. They are looking at his sack total as a senior, he had 8 sacks, which is excellent for a DT. However, 4 of them came against Stanford's OG's, who he just victimized. People keep making Aaron Donald comparisons, and that is just crap. He is not that type of quick penetrating player. He is a very good DT, and I would love to have him, but he is not the same kind of player as Donald.

If there is a player I most compare him to, it would be Richard Seymour (former Pats and Raiders DT). Tillery is big. He is tall, he has power. He is really starting to learn to use his hands, and he plays with excellent leverage. He does get penetration, but it is because he takes on and defeats blocks. I do think he lacks some of the speed and elite inital quickness to be a great/dominant pass rusher. Tillery's quickness is good, not great. I think he will push the pocket and get a lot of pressures, but is probably not going to be able to finish to put up great sack numbers, but will help others get them (probably). he might get them, because Bosa and Ingram force the QB to step up towards the DT a lot, so he might be in position to finish the QB off.

Again, if you are looking for synergy, getting the right complementary pieces to the guys we have, I think he is an excellent fit. A very good player for the 28th pick, but a player who is a good compliment as a pass rusher on early downs who can deflect passes in the short passing game, and be part of the long yard rush line rotation with Bosa, Ingram, Nwosu, Rochelle and Jones.

Have heard rumours of questionable motor. Disappears for long stretches. These are not traits I like to ascribe to my first rd selection. Any concerns there?

[La Costa Boy]

I usually use the term complementary. But the fact is football teams are made up of different pieces that have to work together. Synergy is simply another way of saying that. Either way, adding a great player who doesn't have the right skills is not as important as getting the lesser player with the right skills.

If you had Chris Jones from KC and Aaron Donald from the Rams both playing DT for someone, most fans would spontaneously explode in delight. However, the results would suck on running downs, because both of them tend to over penetrate and leave gaping holes in the D. WHich is why every defensive scheme has 2 DT positions. 1 penetrating DT (under DT or 3 technique) and NT to play the run and take on the double teams.

The obvious retort to this is why not get someone who does both? BEcause those people are very rare. Yes, Suh is big enough to lock on and control any OL as a run defender and quick and agile enough to beat them with quickness, speed or power as a pass rusher. But there is only 1 Suh. Ngata (former Raven/Lions/Philly DT) is another. But that is 2 players like that in the last 10-12 years. If we want to build a roster of players like that, we have to wait a long, long time. And it means learning to live with a lot of lesser players at other positions. At some point, you need good players at every position. So playing a lesser player who fills specific roles is how teams get past this. IT's not ideal, but it is what works.

No reason to have to explain......I'll probably use it in a meeting this week just for fun.....It just made me chuckle into my coffee this morning.....

[Scott Green]

I'm not saying that he isn't better. That is true of many starting LB in the NFL compared to our backup.

The point is, Wagner would not be the pro bowl caliber LB he is for Seattle, if you put him in the Steelers 34 D and make him go head to head with the OG play after play. He can do it, and he wouldn't be horrible. But he would not be an impact player either.

If we want our LB to improve their level of play, we need 2 things.
1). better players at LB
2). better DT play.

If we don't have BOTH, the results are probably not going to be a lot different than last year.

Our Db were successful against Baltimore in the postseason because the DL pinched the DE and the DT did a solid job taking on the double teams and not letting the OL release, so the DB could hit the gaps. In NE the OL and FB/TE were getting free releases to block down on the DB and LB. You can blame the personnel at LB, but the problems in NE go deeper than just who was playing LB. Nothing went right in Gillette stadium.

The big thing is why would we want to draft a player, particularly with a quality draft pick, and not try to maximize their chances of becoming a quality player? For LB that means you have to get better DT.

Having Nwosu and White start from day one would be a big help with the Linebacking issues, DT needs major attention and better players.

[blueman]

They might even help Perryman stay healthy.

[Maniaque 6]

Like I said in another thread, if Perryman, Brown and White all stay healthy, I don't see problem at LB.
Emmanuel and Nwosu are backups.
How many LBs do you need in a game?

[wu-dai clan]

Like I said in another thread, if Perryman, Brown and White all stay healthy, I don't see problem at LB.
Emmanuel and Nwosu are backups.
How many LBs do you need in a game?

Now that you got me jonesin' on these athletic LBs.

Gotta build depth there.

Lordy my next mock's gonna be different.

It's the evolution of the game.