Team Without A Power RB got to SB? - A RB Discussion

[Steve]

Henry was a more than adequate blocker. Virgil Green has been our backup tight end for 2 years and he is an excellent blocker. I think players like Virgil Green in that role can be filled by an inexpensive veteran. Your focus on blocking from the tight end position HBack/FB is glossing over the fact we just had a piss-poor offensive line. Our running woes were more to do with the fact we could not control the game at the point of attack at any position along the offensive line. This has not been a one year aspect. Unfortunately we've not only had a tremendous amount of injuries we've had cluster injuries. We couldn't protect well on the edge in the pass game, and the middle of our line reminded me of the damn breaking during hurricane Katrina New Orleans in BOTH the run and pass game. Combine that with the fact that I believe our online coach prior to Camden had no business being in offensive line coach. He was an unmitigated disaster in my opinion. I believe these factors have had a hell of a lot more to do with our inability to run effectively.

The OL cannot do it all, you need TE and FB, unless you are going to be an inside zone team with (basically) a 4 WR offense. Running Off-tackle and outside just is almost impossible without a FB to kick-out and a TE to block down. You can wish and dream about making the the run game go without blocking defenders, but there are not too many defenders in the NFL who won't make a tackle if they aren't blocked. Running the ball you have to block everyone.

Keep dreaming about just going out and singing someone. It is the same reek of stupidity argument that there "must" be someone who can do it, when there isn't. If there is someone, who do you think we should get. Below is a list I got from OTC.

Again, colleges are doing a poor job of teaching their TE to block and it is translating to the NFL. Fewer and fewer guys do a good job of blocking and the standards are slipping every year. Henry was OK, but 10 years ago, that was considered sub par. Virgil was OK last year, but he really hardly played. The year before was his worst year blocking, and he was hurt. Not a very impressive way last 2 years to count on.

The FA TE list at OTC is:
Greg Olson - can't stay healthy and is 36- wouldn't want to be a blocking TE at this stage in his career
Jason Witten - his game is gone and is 39- wouldn't want to be a blocking TE at this stage in his career
Virgil Green - 33 and is having trouble staying healthy - Really he is the only option out there.
MyCole Pruitt - 29, but not a very good zone blocker
Demitrius Harris - slightly above average zone blocker, below average power/gap guy
Luke Wilson - only played 40 snaps last year and is over 30
Jordan Reed - concussions and couldn't block even when he was healthy
Luke Stocker - below average in both zone and gap/power
Nick O'Leary - not on a roster last year during the regular season
Richard Rodgers - struggles to stay on rosters, below average run blocker and no threat as a receiver
Trey Burton - OK zone blocker but very blow average gap/power guy who has disappeared as a receiver.
Seth Devalve - Just no
Ross Travis - another just no guy
Ricky Seals Jones - terrible run blocker and not much of a receiver either.
Deon Yelder - terrible zone blocker
Josh Perkins - not on a roster last year
Jake Butt - an over aged developmental prospect
Troy Fumagalli- terrible blocker who was only on Denver's roster 17 weeks the last 2 years. Shows some promise as a receiver, although less than the guys we already have.
Jesse James - the only other choice after Green, and he hasn't done anything since he left Pitt. - Has been talking to teams, especially Buffalo, but not signed yet.
Tyler Eifert - injury, not much of a blocker when healthy.
John Lovett - well below average run and pass blocker.
Cole Wick - not on a team last year
Jason Vander Laan - 30 year old who has only made a roster 2x in his career.
Jake Burt - UDFA out of Boston College who has never actually played in the NFL.

[Panamamike]

The OL cannot do it all, you need TE and FB, unless you are going to be an inside zone team with (basically) a 4 WR offense. Running Off-tackle and outside just is almost impossible without a FB to kick-out and a TE to block down. You can wish and dream about making the the run game go without blocking defenders, but there are not too many defenders in the NFL who won't make a tackle if they aren't blocked. Running the ball you have to block everyone.

Keep dreaming about just going out and singing someone. It is the same reek of stupidity argument that there "must" be someone who can do it, when there isn't. If there is someone, who do you think we should get. Below is a list I got from OTC.

Again, colleges are doing a poor job of teaching their TE to block and it is translating to the NFL. Fewer and fewer guys do a good job of blocking and the standards are slipping every year. Henry was OK, but 10 years ago, that was considered sub par. Virgil was OK last year, but he really hardly played. The year before was his worst year blocking, and he was hurt. Not a very impressive way last 2 years to count on.

The FA TE list at OTC is:
Greg Olson - can't stay healthy and is 36- wouldn't want to be a blocking TE at this stage in his career
Jason Witten - his game is gone and is 39- wouldn't want to be a blocking TE at this stage in his career
Virgil Green - 33 and is having trouble staying healthy - Really he is the only option out there.
MyCole Pruitt - 29, but not a very good zone blocker
Demitrius Harris - slightly above average zone blocker, below average power/gap guy
Luke Wilson - only played 40 snaps last year and is over 30
Jordan Reed - concussions and couldn't block even when he was healthy
Luke Stocker - below average in both zone and gap/power
Nick O'Leary - not on a roster last year during the regular season
Richard Rodgers - struggles to stay on rosters, below average run blocker and no threat as a receiver
Trey Burton - OK zone blocker but very blow average gap/power guy who has disappeared as a receiver.
Seth Devalve - Just no
Ross Travis - another just no guy
Ricky Seals Jones - terrible run blocker and not much of a receiver either.
Deon Yelder - terrible zone blocker
Josh Perkins - not on a roster last year
Jake Butt - an over aged developmental prospect
Troy Fumagalli- terrible blocker who was only on Denver's roster 17 weeks the last 2 years. Shows some promise as a receiver, although less than the guys we already have.
Jesse James - the only other choice after Green, and he hasn't done anything since he left Pitt. - Has been talking to teams, especially Buffalo, but not signed yet.
Tyler Eifert - injury, not much of a blocker when healthy.
John Lovett - well below average run and pass blocker.
Cole Wick - not on a team last year
Jason Vander Laan - 30 year old who has only made a roster 2x in his career.
Jake Burt - UDFA out of Boston College who has never actually played in the NFL.

1) that is a list of available tight ends going into the draft. I was expecting that some depth tight ends with in line experience to be released between the draft and the start of the season. Not unreasonable after the draft and before the start of the season.

2) both McKitty and Palmer we're drafted with an eye in part to the blocking required to run the outside zone. Was mckitty the right pick? Was he drafted too high? We shall see it's not for me to say it this time. Palmer is amore than willing blocker.

3) blocking in general at the tight end position in college has become a lost art. Most college offences use tight ends almost strictly as receiving threats. We did choose a guy that played in two different pro style offenses and has experience as both an inline blocker and receiver. Yes there are some issues that need to be cleaned up with his blocking including keeping his feet moving.

The same lack of fullback prospects is also true. Often times now fullbacks need to be converted from primary runners in college. They're just aren't that many colleges that utilize a fullback anymore. That adjustment takes time to coach and develop.

Can they find a better blocking fullback between now and when the season starts? I'm sure if the opportunity arises they'll bring someone in. Does Nabers improve on his blocking with a different staff and more off season reps?

4) you absolutely can run the outside zone without both a fullback and tight end in the game. But you do need to have willing and capable blocking receivers. I think you're going to see our offense run out of more past sets and pass out of more run sets and not be so predictable on what we're going to do based upon our formation.

5) I don't think I was implying that the online can do it all
but there is no doubt that last season our online was dog s***. Running on obvious run situations is definitely an entire mindset of the offense and execution. But it is difficult to run successfully in any scheme when you are consistently being blown off the line. I would think we probably were last in the league on yards before first contact in the run game. That deficiency was not a position specific aspect on the oline ether.

In summary I think the chargers have done an excellent job of addressing are blocking deficiencies in one offsesson. We will see how it turns out.

[Caslon]

Wait, applying Visine eye drops, wait a second. OK, continue.

[electricgold]

I’m very confused. You’re asking about SB teams that got there without a power back. Fournette this year for TB is the closest thing to a power back in the last 3 SB and while he played much better in the playoffs he certainly isn’t the reason TB won it all. Blount for the Eagles is the most recent example of a power back for a SB team and his play isn’t what won the SB for them either. If you want a power back that’s all well and good, but it’s certainly not essential to getting to the SB.

I think what he means is a RB that has the ability IF USED FT he could gain a 1000 yards and score 10 TD's what was once referred to as an "Every Down Back" like LT, Marshal Faulk, Etc. Etc. Today the Chargers weak link is our RB's because until one of our guys steps forward and claims that role, it doesn't seem as of right now we have that type of back... Natrone Means, Saquon Barkley.

Our HC seem like he'll give every RB on our squad a fair chance going in to work into the top 2 in the games in training camp.

[Caslon]

“Gee, I wish we had a running game.” .

[equivocation]

"Gee, I wish we had an [offensive line]".

Wish granted.

Eke average 4.6 YPC behind last year's atrocity.

[sonorajim]

Forget about 2020's rushing performance. New coaches, new OL, new playcalling and healthy players will be different in a positive way. It remains to be seen how much better but Better? Yup!

[Steve]

1) that is a list of available tight ends going into the draft. I was expecting that some depth tight ends with in line experience to be released between the draft and the start of the season. Not unreasonable after the draft and before the start of the season.

2) both McKitty and Palmer we're drafted with an eye in part to the blocking required to run the outside zone. Was mckitty the right pick? Was he drafted too high? We shall see it's not for me to say it this time. Palmer is amore than willing blocker.

3) blocking in general at the tight end position in college has become a lost art. Most college offences use tight ends almost strictly as receiving threats. We did choose a guy that played in two different pro style offenses and has experience as both an inline blocker and receiver. Yes there are some issues that need to be cleaned up with his blocking including keeping his feet moving.

The same lack of fullback prospects is also true. Often times now fullbacks need to be converted from primary runners in college. They're just aren't that many colleges that utilize a fullback anymore. That adjustment takes time to coach and develop.

Can they find a better blocking fullback between now and when the season starts? I'm sure if the opportunity arises they'll bring someone in. Does Nabers improve on his blocking with a different staff and more off season reps?

4) you absolutely can run the outside zone without both a fullback and tight end in the game. But you do need to have willing and capable blocking receivers. I think you're going to see our offense run out of more past sets and pass out of more run sets and not be so predictable on what we're going to do based upon our formation.

5) I don't think I was implying that the online can do it all
but there is no doubt that last season our online was dog s***. Running on obvious run situations is definitely an entire mindset of the offense and execution. But it is difficult to run successfully in any scheme when you are consistently being blown off the line. I would think we probably were last in the league on yards before first contact in the run game. That deficiency was not a position specific aspect on the oline ether.

In summary I think the chargers have done an excellent job of addressing are blocking deficiencies in one offseason. We will see how it turns out.

1). Why are teams going to start releasing their TE now? With so many teams looking to clear cap space, they would have done so early so they would have had time to sign another in time for the season. Now, there is no depth, so I can't see any team doing it. I think your logic is flawed.

2). Palmer is a willing blocker, but he cannot set the edge on the outside zone run. That has to be a TE or a wingback? A lot of coaches seem to think you can do it with a FB, but it takes a pretty exceptional FB, and we are a little short on one of those.

3). As far as adjustment goes, true it takes time. But how many players are going to learn the fundamentals and develop this late in their careers? Like it or not, it is fairly unlike to develop a new skill that you have never had if you never did it before. It can happen, but is unlikely to.

4). Your ability to run outside zone is determined by in large by what defense the other team plays. At some point, if they want to take it away, they can by aligning a defender in outside the OT, and they will never get leverage on them. If they put them on both sides, then there you have to run inside. That is especially true of an OLB or DE, but is just as true for many SS types. There are not many WR who can block a DE/OLB or SS so if you cannot block them, you cannot run the play. Draw it up some time and you will see.

5). You seem to be trivializeing the non-OL blocking. Again the best outside zone teams are pretty TE and FB heavy. At the very least they have reasonable blocking guys to go to. There is a reason McVay was promoted to be the Redskins OC, after being a TE coach.

[Guest]

The OL cannot do it all, you need TE and FB, unless you are going to be an inside zone team with (basically) a 4 WR offense. Running Off-tackle and outside just is almost impossible without a FB to kick-out and a TE to block down. You can wish and dream about making the the run game go without blocking defenders, but there are not too many defenders in the NFL who won't make a tackle if they aren't blocked. Running the ball you have to block everyone.

Keep dreaming about just going out and singing someone. It is the same reek of stupidity argument that there "must" be someone who can do it, when there isn't. If there is someone, who do you think we should get. Below is a list I got from OTC.

Again, colleges are doing a poor job of teaching their TE to block and it is translating to the NFL. Fewer and fewer guys do a good job of blocking and the standards are slipping every year. Henry was OK, but 10 years ago, that was considered sub par. Virgil was OK last year, but he really hardly played. The year before was his worst year blocking, and he was hurt. Not a very impressive way last 2 years to count on.

The FA TE list at OTC is:
Greg Olson - can't stay healthy and is 36- wouldn't want to be a blocking TE at this stage in his career
Jason Witten - his game is gone and is 39- wouldn't want to be a blocking TE at this stage in his career
Virgil Green - 33 and is having trouble staying healthy - Really he is the only option out there.
MyCole Pruitt - 29, but not a very good zone blocker
Demitrius Harris - slightly above average zone blocker, below average power/gap guy
Luke Wilson - only played 40 snaps last year and is over 30
Jordan Reed - concussions and couldn't block even when he was healthy
Luke Stocker - below average in both zone and gap/power
Nick O'Leary - not on a roster last year during the regular season
Richard Rodgers - struggles to stay on rosters, below average run blocker and no threat as a receiver
Trey Burton - OK zone blocker but very blow average gap/power guy who has disappeared as a receiver.
Seth Devalve - Just no
Ross Travis - another just no guy
Ricky Seals Jones - terrible run blocker and not much of a receiver either.
Deon Yelder - terrible zone blocker
Josh Perkins - not on a roster last year
Jake Butt - an over aged developmental prospect
Troy Fumagalli- terrible blocker who was only on Denver's roster 17 weeks the last 2 years. Shows some promise as a receiver, although less than the guys we already have.
Jesse James - the only other choice after Green, and he hasn't done anything since he left Pitt. - Has been talking to teams, especially Buffalo, but not signed yet.
Tyler Eifert - injury, not much of a blocker when healthy.
John Lovett - well below average run and pass blocker.
Cole Wick - not on a team last year
Jason Vander Laan - 30 year old who has only made a roster 2x in his career.
Jake Burt - UDFA out of Boston College who has never actually played in the NFL.

Butt is currently only 25 and was a highly touted first team All-American prospect before he tore his ACL and then had another ACL injury while with the Broncos. It is too bad for him that his career has stalled the way that it has. He may be too much of an injury risk for us to consider and not a good fit for us if we need someone to be primarily a blocker, but I would not call him either overaged or a developmental prospect.

[Guest]

1) that is a list of available tight ends going into the draft. I was expecting that some depth tight ends with in line experience to be released between the draft and the start of the season. Not unreasonable after the draft and before the start of the season.

2) both McKitty and Palmer we're drafted with an eye in part to the blocking required to run the outside zone. Was mckitty the right pick? Was he drafted too high? We shall see it's not for me to say it this time. Palmer is amore than willing blocker.

3) blocking in general at the tight end position in college has become a lost art. Most college offences use tight ends almost strictly as receiving threats. We did choose a guy that played in two different pro style offenses and has experience as both an inline blocker and receiver. Yes there are some issues that need to be cleaned up with his blocking including keeping his feet moving.

The same lack of fullback prospects is also true. Often times now fullbacks need to be converted from primary runners in college. They're just aren't that many colleges that utilize a fullback anymore. That adjustment takes time to coach and develop.

Can they find a better blocking fullback between now and when the season starts? I'm sure if the opportunity arises they'll bring someone in. Does Nabers improve on his blocking with a different staff and more off season reps?

4) you absolutely can run the outside zone without both a fullback and tight end in the game. But you do need to have willing and capable blocking receivers. I think you're going to see our offense run out of more past sets and pass out of more run sets and not be so predictable on what we're going to do based upon our formation.

5) I don't think I was implying that the online can do it all
but there is no doubt that last season our online was dog s***. Running on obvious run situations is definitely an entire mindset of the offense and execution. But it is difficult to run successfully in any scheme when you are consistently being blown off the line. I would think we probably were last in the league on yards before first contact in the run game. That deficiency was not a position specific aspect on the oline ether.

In summary I think the chargers have done an excellent job of addressing are blocking deficiencies in one offsesson. We will see how it turns out.

What indication is there that Palmer will be a better run blocker than Williams, Allen or Guyton? Williams and Allen are both bigger than Palmer and Guyton is the same size as Palmer (same height and two pounds heavier than Palmer).

None of Palmer's draft profiles emphasized Palmer's run blocking as a stand out trait and the video evidence I have seen shows that he is pretty average when it comes to run blocking. So, if Palmer was drafted for his run blocking, that seems to make the pick even more questionable.

[like54ninjas]

What indication is there that Palmer will be a better run blocker than Williams, Allen or Guyton? Williams and Allen are both bigger than Palmer and Guyton is the same size as Palmer (same height and two pounds heavier than Palmer).

None of Palmer's draft profiles emphasized Palmer's run blocking as a stand out trait and the video evidence I have seen shows that he is pretty average when it comes to run blocking. So, if Palmer was drafted for his run blocking, that seems to make the pick even more questionable.

Watch the UTN actual game tapes over the past 3 years. He is a very solid run and screen blocker.
KA13, MikeDub, Guyton, and Johnson are anywhere from outstanding to willing blockers as well.
The more talent the better.

[Guest]

Watch the UTN actual game tapes over the past 3 years. He is a very solid run and screen blocker.
KA13, MikeDub, Guyton, and Johnson are anywhere from outstanding to willing blockers as well.
The more talent the better.

I can accept that Palmer is a willing and solid run blocker. I am not suggesting that he sucks in that area. What I am suggesting is that I see no evidence that he is special in that area. In fact, I do not see any evidence of anyone outside of this forum claiming he is special in that area.

The premise offered was that Palmer was drafted with an eye toward his run blocking. Such a statement suggests that he would possibly see the field in running situations over certain other WRs.

My point is that he will not. I think Williams and Allen are better run blockers than Palmer and Guyton is at least a push.

I have a difficult time believing 1) that the team selected a WR in the 3rd round primarily because of his ability to block in the running game and 2) of all the WRs that might actually be strong run blockers, any team would have Palmer at the top of its run blocking WR list.