Team Without A Power RB got to SB? - A RB Discussion

[Bolt Dude]

I don't see much of a spot for him in the NFL. You have to figure that's his timed pro day. He's even slower than that time. There has to be more athletic options.

Ben Mason is not a RB. He shouldn’t be graded like one. He’s an H-back, blocking TE, short yardage back, and ST contributor.

Mason has a 8.97 RAS, which means he’s pretty damned athletic. That’s a higher score than Javonte Williams, higher than Tommy Tremble.

Mason’s pro day numbers are almost identical to Hunter Long, who’s the 3rd ranked TE in the draft. I think he’s faster than Pat Freiermuth who didn’t run at his pro day.

Mason would be a valuable asset and can be had in the 6-7th round.

[Panamamike]

Ben Mason is not a RB. He shouldn’t be graded like one. He’s an H-back, blocking TE, short yardage back, and ST contributor.

Mason has a 8.97 RAS, which means he’s pretty damned athletic. That’s a higher score than Javonte Williams, higher than Tommy Tremble.

Mason’s pro day numbers are almost identical to Hunter Long, who’s the 3rd ranked TE in the draft. I think he’s faster than Pat Freiermuth who didn’t run at his pro day.

Mason would be a valuable asset and can be had in the 6-7th round.

How much pass catching did he do at Michigan? How many routes has he ever run? For all we know he's got hands of stone. I'd have to think there's better options. UDFA maybe.... I would not spend a draft pick on him. My .02.

[Bolt Dude]

How much pass catching did he do at Michigan? How many routes has he ever run? For all we know he's got hands of stone. I'd have to think there's better options. UDFA maybe.... I would not spend a draft pick on him. My .02.

We’ll chalk it up to a philosophical difference.

The 6-7th rounds can be used on players who may (or may not) ever develop into a specialized offensive or defensive position.

But they can also be used to get a guy like Ben Mason (or Avery Williams) who can immediately make an impact on special teams.

[Panamamike]

We’ll chalk it up to a philosophical difference.

The 6-7th rounds can be used on players who may (or may not) ever develop into a specialized offensive or defensive position.

But they can also be used to get a guy like Ben Mason (or Avery Williams) who can immediately make an impact on special teams.

I agree with the last part. But given the roster has limited space on it I think that spot can be used on a depth piece with a defined role. I.e. back up LBs, Dbs etc. I just don't see him having a positional fit for us in order.to take s roster spot.

[Steve]

All of the chiefs backs have more speed and tackle braking power than all of the Chargers backs.

Chargers ONLY have a group of average speed smallish, injury prone, rotational backs...... The ex MIA RB we picked up off the unemployed scrap heap was far closer to being an every down RB than anyone we have had in years.... and he had the power to consistently get one flicking yard when needed......which none of our other backs can do consistently.....

Chargers definitely need to draft a big, durable starting quality tackle breaking RB...... Ekler is a good rotational back.... but not a starting or every down back.....

I don't think they do.

The Chiefs RB break more tackles, because they can get going and the blockers are getting pieces of their guys, where our RB have to break form tackles, with defenders squared up and broken down in the hole. The Chiefs guys make look better, but their RB are looking better because the RB are able to get moving and hit the hole, because they have a much better OL. Any RB is going to look better when he can get up to speed and hit the hole with confidence, instead of having to break tackles in the backfield before they get moving.

[Steve]

How much pass catching did he do at Michigan? How many routes has he ever run? For all we know he's got hands of stone. I'd have to think there's better options. UDFA maybe.... I would not spend a draft pick on him. My .02.

Some offense don't use players by design, no matter how good they might be. Remember that Roger Craig only caught like 8 passes in college, and the word was that he was not a capable receiving RB. But that was all about Nebraska not throwing to their RB. His teammate Tom Rathman also got that knock, but he was an effective pass catcher for the 49ers. LT had a similar knock, and a lot of his draft reviews coming out of TCU. Michigan doesn't have much of a passing game, so the fact that he doesn't catch many passes doesn't man much, IMHO.

More importantly, who do we have that can block at TE. While fans may only feel TE is another WR positon, NFL feel differently. Backup TE are mostly blockers, and we don't have one, unless you count Naber as an Hback. If any college TE is showing great ability to catch, they are going to be drafted way higher than the 6th or 7th round. This is about evaluating them, and do they have a role in the CHargers offense. If he can throw a key block in short yardage, how is that any less valuable than a OT, OG or C? And if the guys don't block for the RB, how is the RB going to get in the end zone.

How does a poor running team like the Chargers get to the point where we can IMPOSE OUR WILL on the other team? That means run the ball in the 5 minute offense and kill the clock. That means converting 3rd and 4th downs. It means being able to run the ball on the goalline. There is strong argument to be made a guy like Mason adds the toughness to do those things, as well as add some ST value, and maybe some goaline D. Sure, it is situational football, but the NFL is situational football.

What you absolutely do not want to do though is not OVER value him. He is not worth taking too early (4th round or so), even if you are going to use him a lot. There are limits to how productive he will be. For example, he is not very nifty and agile as a receiver. If he can consistently catch dumpoff passes out of the backfield as a TE or FB, then turn it upfield and get boring but consistent yardage, then fine. The 49ers get good, boring yardage out of Justin Juszczyk not because he is a great athlete, but they are willing to sacrifice some big play potential for consistency. The Dallas Cowboys under Jimmy Johnson had 1 WR who was basically a decoy in Alvin Harper. He averaged 20+ yards per play, but only caught like 20-ish passes per season. But Michael Irvin caught a ton, but mostly Jay Novachek, Moose Johnson and Emmitt Smith made up for the deficit by catching about 3 passes per game underneath and getting what they could. Not many big plays, just move the ball and wait for the big plays in the running game and big plays to Irvin, and adding value by wearing down defenders who were stuck in their base D, and then just keep hitting and pounding on them. Is Lombardi willing to do that??????? If he is, then it is worth a middle or late round draft pick. If not ... NO.

It has nothing to do with your evaluation of Mason, but will the coaches use him. You have to have a plan and then be willing to stick to it.

[Steve]

I guess things HAVE changed. Tampa Bay won the SB while being near the bottom in overall rushing attempts.Their yrds. per rush was decent. Something like 4.83 yards. per carry. The Chargers? A lot more rushing attempts but 3.83 yrds. per. Somewhat near the bottom in that regard.

Yard per carry for a has very little to do with consistency and is simply a measure of how many long runs a team breaks and where on the field a team is when they do it.

Teams that are the leaders in yards per carry are the leaders because they pound teams, wear them down and eventually break long runs. They usually get the YPC simply by running over and over again.

[Panamamike]

Some offense don't use players by design, no matter how good they might be. Remember that Roger Craig only caught like 8 passes in college, and the word was that he was not a capable receiving RB. But that was all about Nebraska not throwing to their RB. His teammate Tom Rathman also got that knock, but he was an effective pass catcher for the 49ers. LT had a similar knock, and a lot of his draft reviews coming out of TCU. Michigan doesn't have much of a passing game, so the fact that he doesn't catch many passes doesn't man much, IMHO.

More importantly, who do we have that can block at TE. While fans may only feel TE is another WR positon, NFL feel differently. Backup TE are mostly blockers, and we don't have one, unless you count Naber as an Hback. If any college TE is showing great ability to catch, they are going to be drafted way higher than the 6th or 7th round. This is about evaluating them, and do they have a role in the CHargers offense. If he can throw a key block in short yardage, how is that any less valuable than a OT, OG or C? And if the guys don't block for the RB, how is the RB going to get in the end zone.

How does a poor running team like the Chargers get to the point where we can IMPOSE OUR WILL on the other team? That means run the ball in the 5 minute offense and kill the clock. That means converting 3rd and 4th downs. It means being able to run the ball on the goalline. There is strong argument to be made a guy like Mason adds the toughness to do those things, as well as add some ST value, and maybe some goaline D. Sure, it is situational football, but the NFL is situational football.

What you absolutely do not want to do though is not OVER value him. He is not worth taking too early (4th round or so), even if you are going to use him a lot. There are limits to how productive he will be. For example, he is not very nifty and agile as a receiver. If he can consistently catch dumpoff passes out of the backfield as a TE or FB, then turn it upfield and get boring but consistent yardage, then fine. The 49ers get good, boring yardage out of Justin Juszczyk not because he is a great athlete, but they are willing to sacrifice some big play potential for consistency. The Dallas Cowboys under Jimmy Johnson had 1 WR who was basically a decoy in Alvin Harper. He averaged 20+ yards per play, but only caught like 20-ish passes per season. But Michael Irvin caught a ton, but mostly Jay Novachek, Moose Johnson and Emmitt Smith made up for the deficit by catching about 3 passes per game underneath and getting what they could. Not many big plays, just move the ball and wait for the big plays in the running game and big plays to Irvin, and adding value by wearing down defenders who were stuck in their base D, and then just keep hitting and pounding on them. Is Lombardi willing to do that??????? If he is, then it is worth a middle or late round draft pick. If not ... NO.

It has nothing to do with your evaluation of Mason, but will the coaches use him. You have to have a plan and then be willing to stick to it.

1) those players you reference from back in the 70s and early 80s didn't play in the same type of college football being played today nor the NFL... And yes I'm old enough to remember those players well. As for LT the chargers worked them out and they were surprised by his hands. Given that there's no way to work anybody out in person thus year, maybe doesn't quite cut it for me.

2) a blocking tight end can be had off the NFL Scrap heap, just like our last backup tight end.

3) I stand by my assessment that I don't see him able to make our roster. I think there are other positional players that can actually make our roster they will have a better effect on special teams.

[Steve]

1) those players you reference from back in the 70s and early 80s didn't play in the same type of college football being played today nor the NFL... And yes I'm old enough to remember those players well. As for LT the chargers worked them out and they were surprised by his hands. Given that there's no way to work anybody out in person thus year, maybe doesn't quite cut it for me.

2) a blocking tight end can be had off the NFL Scrap heap, just like our last backup tight end.

3) I stand by my assessment that I don't see him able to make our roster. I think there are other positional players that can actually make our roster they will have a better effect on special teams.

1). I am not saying they did. However, if we line up in 12 or 21 personnel, with players who are a legit threat to block and run the ball, then defenses are forced to counter it, and a typical FB or TE is much more a receiving/big play threat vs most NFL LB, then they are in base personnel. It is all about matchups, and teams like SF and Balt are doing an outstanding job of getting the mismatches they wanted and got a lot of miles out of TE and, even in todays game.

I'm not saying Mason is going to be a great receiver, but I think OC's tend to get too fixated on trying to generate chunk plays and should focus more on moving the ball. Big plays will often happen through defensive mistakes (missed tackles), so a big powerful guy breaking a big play has more potential than even if he is not a "threat". Even 3 yards and cloud of dust has some value, if a team is willing to use those kinds of plays. Even in today's NFL, if you can consistently get 3.4 yards, you will get a first down.

2). When was the last time the Chargers had a decent running game? And how about the quality of the backup TE and FB for the best running teams in the NFL (49ers and Ravens). They are much, much better than what we have. Big physical guys who are no more athletic than Mason. They have been developed since coming out of college, so that is maybe what needs to be focused on. I would argue that a big part of why our running game sucks is that we don't put enough emphasis on the TE and FB types. Particularly if we want to be more efficient in the red zone and short yardage, which we are not so great at.

3). He can, but it depends on the direction of the offense more than his ability. Nabers is not a very good runner or receiver. He was OK by college standards, but was only barely adequate last year. Mason is a lot better than Nabers, at least as a power runner and blocker. AS a receiver, Nabers is a bit better because he is more athletic adjusting to the ball in the air, but neither has a lot to go on.

Again, it all depends on how we approach situational football and how pass happy we become. NFL OC tend to think just about getting big plays and all of their "solution" or "answer" plays tend to passes. If Lombardi surprises us, commits' to the family heritage, and tries to instill some toughness, then a player like Mason can be a asset. He may be used mostly as a blocker, but the guy is a good athlete and has value where the Chargers are really, really weak (short yardage and goal line).

But at some point, there is only so much take what the other team gives you before you realize that you doing what the other team wants you to do. At some point, you have to impose your will and be able to dictate to the other team. That is what wins championships. There are many ways to do that, and Mason doesn't figure in all of those ways, but he could figure in some versions of the Chargers that do.

[Panamamike]

1). I am not saying they did. However, if we line up in 12 or 21 personnel, with players who are a legit threat to block and run the ball, then defenses are forced to counter it, and a typical FB or TE is much more a receiving/big play threat vs most NFL LB, then they are in base personnel. It is all about matchups, and teams like SF and Balt are doing an outstanding job of getting the mismatches they wanted and got a lot of miles out of TE and, even in todays game.

I'm not saying Mason is going to be a great receiver, but I think OC's tend to get too fixated on trying to generate chunk plays and should focus more on moving the ball. Big plays will often happen through defensive mistakes (missed tackles), so a big powerful guy breaking a big play has more potential than even if he is not a "threat". Even 3 yards and cloud of dust has some value, if a team is willing to use those kinds of plays. Even in today's NFL, if you can consistently get 3.4 yards, you will get a first down.

2). When was the last time the Chargers had a decent running game? And how about the quality of the backup TE and FB for the best running teams in the NFL (49ers and Ravens). They are much, much better than what we have. Big physical guys who are no more athletic than Mason. They have been developed since coming out of college, so that is maybe what needs to be focused on. I would argue that a big part of why our running game sucks is that we don't put enough emphasis on the TE and FB types. Particularly if we want to be more efficient in the red zone and short yardage, which we are not so great at.

3). He can, but it depends on the direction of the offense more than his ability. Nabers is not a very good runner or receiver. He was OK by college standards, but was only barely adequate last year. Mason is a lot better than Nabers, at least as a power runner and blocker. AS a receiver, Nabers is a bit better because he is more athletic adjusting to the ball in the air, but neither has a lot to go on.

Again, it all depends on how we approach situational football and how pass happy we become. NFL OC tend to think just about getting big plays and all of their "solution" or "answer" plays tend to passes. If Lombardi surprises us, commits' to the family heritage, and tries to instill some toughness, then a player like Mason can be a asset. He may be used mostly as a blocker, but the guy is a good athlete and has value where the Chargers are really, really weak (short yardage and goal line).

But at some point, there is only so much take what the other team gives you before you realize that you doing what the other team wants you to do. At some point, you have to impose your will and be able to dictate to the other team. That is what wins championships. There are many ways to do that, and Mason doesn't figure in all of those ways, but he could figure in some versions of the Chargers that do.

Henry was a more than adequate blocker. Virgil Green has been our backup tight end for 2 years and he is an excellent blocker. I think players like Virgil Green in that role can be filled by an inexpensive veteran. Your focus on blocking from the tight end position HBack/FB is glossing over the fact we just had a piss-poor offensive line. Our running woes were more to do with the fact we could not control the game at the point of attack at any position along the offensive line. This has not been a one year aspect. Unfortunately we've not only had a tremendous amount of injuries we've had cluster injuries. We couldn't protect well on the edge in the pass game, and the middle of our line reminded me of the damn breaking during hurricane Katrina New Orleans in BOTH the run and pass game. Combine that with the fact that I believe our online coach prior to Camden had no business being in offensive line coach. He was an unmitigated disaster in my opinion. I believe these factors have had a hell of a lot more to do with our inability to run effectively.

[Caslon]

Gotta say, Jackson and Kelly gotta be hoping they get to stay and show what they can do with the new O-line. Herbert has shown what he can do without one with sub par pass protection. TT keeps adding RB’s beyond the 3rd round as if. Besides Ekeler, the three of them will get evaluated if the new O-line stays intact thru preseason. 3 way dogfight, lol. None showed lasting potential with last years O-line. RB’s aren’t the high commodity early draft picks they used to be. Seems they are now later round picks like lineman nowadays.

[BoltBacker]

Special teams may cost one of them a job, Kelly better show huge improvement or I don't see him making the cut this year.