Welcome Josh Palmer, WR, Tennessee (Pick #77)

[Guest]

The big problem is, you make an opinion, then design an argument to support it, which usually blows up in your face. You should let the facts lead you to your opinion, then you have natural arguments and facts to back up your position. This is not a courtroom where opinions and facts exist in a vacuum. This is real life where people can watch with their own eyes to make their own opinions, the opinions do not seem to be in your favor.

No, the big problem is that your post was completely nonresponsive to my post and you still do not see it because you think the video you showed was relevant to my comment and it was not. Then, with this post, you doubled down on your error.

I stated that Palmer was not strong at the catch point on the play against CIN that he turned from a reception into an INT.

You responded by showing me a video of a different play that I was not discussing.

And even worse, the play you showed does not seem to show strength at the catch point either. There is very little contact between the defender and Palmer and the defender does not appear to get his hands on the ball. Palmer makes a good play on the ball by using good timing on his leap and uses his natural coordination to catch the ball after not positioning his hands correctly, which allows the ball to get into his shoulder pad/facemask.

[Xenos]

Obviously, QBs get credited statistically with all INTs regardless of fault. My discussion focuses on Palmer's demonstrated (lack of) ability in the deep passing game, especially when compared to the team's best deep WR in Guyton. The two WRs are polar opposites in the deep passing game--all TDs versus all INTs.

And specifically, on the plays in question, if a WR is going to turn one reception that should have been made into an INT and another ball that most WRs would have broken up into an INT, then that WR is not very reliable in the deep passing game.

Also, I think it is important to note that Telesco/Staley have not seen the issues as related to Palmer since he was drafted. We know that because of the draft pick reach coupled with overhyping of Palmer that his traits and play have not supported to date.

It is obvious that they want him to be something that he simply is not. The overhyping last year prompted all of the absurd discussion on this forum that Palmer was going to replace Mike Williams this year. When his play fell far short of that as I said then that it would, people have now shifted to exalting Palmer because the people that reached for Palmer and overhyped him now may mistakenly play him as the #3 WR over a far more deserving UDFA in Guyton and to the detriment of the team.

What an accomplishment for a 3rd round pick--being gifted the #3 WR role over an UDFA. Yeah, Palmer rocks. SMH....

And I will make another Palmer prediction--when Allen leaves, Palmer will not be the one that replaces him in the long run. The team will draft someone better that will play ahead of Palmer.

In those two specific plays, Herbert was at fault. There’s no question about it. It’s not a matter of context since some interceptions are the receiver’s fault or OL’s fault. Anyone who has a working pair of eyes and study film would see the missed opportunity from Herbert. If you can’t see that, which you obviously can’t or are in deep denial, then your football acumen is seriously lacking. And the plays in question are ones that most receivers would have problems with, including your boy Guyton. Palmer did really well despite being a rookie. He would have had two more TDs if Herbert had not thrown both balls badly. The Texans game, in particular, hurts because that was an easy TD that maybe would have changed the momentum in our favor.

[Guest]

In those two specific plays, Herbert was at fault. There’s no question about it. It’s not a matter of context since some interceptions are the receiver’s fault or OL’s fault. Anyone who has a working pair of eyes and study film would see the missed opportunity from Herbert. If you can’t see that, which you obviously can’t or are in deep denial, then your football acumen is seriously lacking. And the plays in question are ones that most receivers would have problems with, including your boy Guyton. Palmer did really well despite being a rookie. He would have had two more TDs if Herbert had not thrown both balls badly. The Texans game, in particular, hurts because that was an easy TD that maybe would have changed the momentum in our favor.

Your take is ridiculous as to the play against the Bengals. Palmer had both hands on the ball and dropped it as he was contacted by the defender with the ball going right into the defenders hands for an INT. In the NFL, that should be a catch. It is what Palmer is paid to do.

I have always acknowledged that the pass in the HOU game was underthrown. But somebody should have held up a sign for Palmer that informed him that he was allowed to move toward the ball and make a play on the ball. His reaction to that pass was absolutely terrible. The defender came from far away to make the INT while Palmer did nothing. If the defender could react and run straight to the ball, why couldn't Palmer? That play should have been a pass break up by Palmer at the very worst.

You comments about Guyton are equally absurd. In the same CIN game, Guyton was underthrown like Palmer was in the HOU game. Not only did he move toward the ball, he fought through the defender and made the catch for a TD. That is exactly the kind of effort that Palmer should have made on the pass versus HOU. I am not expecting a reception there, just that the WR does enough to prevent the INT. Palmer underachieved in that respect and Guyton overachieved.

Herbert's passer rating when targeting Guyton was 115.6 (36th overall for any receiver being targeted by any QB, top Charger WR ranking). Herbert's passer rating when targeting Palmer was 98.4 (100th overall). Given comparable target numbers (49 for Palmer and 48 for Guyton), does that help to show which WR worked best with Herbert in our offense?

[Xenos]

Your take is ridiculous as to the play against the Bengals. Palmer had both hands on the ball and dropped it as he was contacted by the defender with the ball going right into the defenders hands for an INT. In the NFL, that should be a catch. It is what Palmer is paid to do.

I have always acknowledged that the pass in the HOU game was underthrown. But somebody should have held up a sign for Palmer that informed him that he was allowed to move toward the ball and make a play on the ball. His reaction to that pass was absolutely terrible. The defender came from far away to make the INT while Palmer did nothing. If the defender could react and run straight to the ball, why couldn't Palmer? That play should have been a pass break up by Palmer at the very worst.

You comments about Guyton are equally absurd. In the same CIN game, Guyton was underthrown like Palmer was in the HOU game. Not only did he move toward the ball, he fought through the defender and made the catch for a TD. That is exactly the kind of effort that Palmer should have made on the pass versus HOU. I am not expecting a reception there, just that the WR does enough to prevent the INT. Palmer underachieved in that respect and Guyton overachieved.

Herbert's passer rating when targeting Guyton was 115.6 (36th overall for any receiver being targeted by any QB, top Charger WR ranking). Herbert's passer rating when targeting Palmer was 98.4 (100th overall). Given comparable target numbers (49 for Palmer and 48 for Guyton), does that help to show which WR worked best with Herbert in our offense?

Palmer would have caught the ball that Herbert threw to Guyton in the Bengals game, while Guyton would have also failed to prevent the interception on the Palmer under throw. If you cannot see the difference between both plays, I can’t help you.

[dmac_bolt]

Are you a Chargers fan? Just checking because our coaches at the time felt that Tyrod Taylor gave us a better chance of winning than Justin Herbert.

Seriously, after that, I never want to see another poster on this forum say what you just said.

And if you want to distinguish between Lynn and Staley, I have two words for you--Jerry Tillery. So, you are saying that Jerry Tillery gave us the best chance to win, are you? I mean, it is not possible for a coach and/or GM to become invested in a player at the expense of another player or just simply make the wrong decision, is it?

Are you talking about Tillery last year? Who were these superior DTs on the 2021 Charger roster? Lol … I’m going to have to dub thee Mr Tidy Bowl if you continue this obsessive affinity for scrubs.

[dmac_bolt]

If Guyton could get open as quickly as Palmer, and Guyton didnt drop as many balls as he has, he’d be thought of more highly. Instead we’ve got Chain explaining to us why 24 yard TD passes don’t count. F-ing amazing.

[blueman]

If Guyton could get open as quickly as Palmer, and Guyton didnt drop as many balls as he has, he’d be thought of more highly. Instead we’ve got Chain explaining to us why 24 yard TD passes don’t count. F-ing amazing.

Man-love. It can change the world.

[Maniaque 6]

I tought that this debate was over when I said Guyton is the backup to MW and JP to KA.
The real question is who is #5.

[Xenos]

I tought that this debate was over when I said Guyton is the backup to MW and JP to KA.
The real question is who is #5.

It's DeAndre Carter

[richpjr]

Are you a Chargers fan? Just checking because our coaches at the time felt that Tyrod Taylor gave us a better chance of winning than Justin Herbert.

Seriously, after that, I never want to see another poster on this forum say what you just said.

And if you want to distinguish between Lynn and Staley, I have two words for you--Jerry Tillery. So, you are saying that Jerry Tillery gave us the best chance to win, are you? I mean, it is not possible for a coach and/or GM to become invested in a player at the expense of another player or just simply make the wrong decision, is it?

The Taylor vs Herbert situation is a vastly different one than Palmer vs Guyton. Taylor was a holding place until Herbert was ready to play. Everybody knew Taylor wasn't the answer at QB, it was really when would Herbert be ready - and remember how many people thought that he needed to sit a year (including an awful lot of people on your big board you love to cite).

Not sure why you bring up Tillery - Staley can only play who was on the roster. First round draft picks usually don't get cut right away, especially when (sadly) there was nobody on the roster better than him to put him on the bench, let alone cut him.

Speed in a receiver is nice - no doubt about it. But there is so much more to being a receiver and Palmer is probably better at everything than Guyton is except straight line speed. His playing time increased as the season went on for a reason and it wasn't because Staley is an idiot. People covering the team list him as one of the potential breakout players this year. Seemingly everyone sees it but you. Like I said, speed is wonderful but guys like Tyron Johnson show that it isn't close to enough to make it in the NFL as a WR. I like Guyton. He is a good depth receiver and plays a role but I expect Palmer replaces him as our 3rd receiver this year.

[Guest]

Palmer would have caught the ball that Herbert threw to Guyton in the Bengals game, while Guyton would have also failed to prevent the interception on the Palmer under throw. If you cannot see the difference between both plays, I can’t help you.

Palmer just sat there and watched the defender cut under him from many yards away on the throw in the Houston game. If you see that play from the all-22 view, you can see just how far the defender had to come for the pass while Palmer did nothing to go get the ball. The defender had the deep coverage on the half of the field opposite the side that Palmer broke toward and was nowhere near Palmer for most of the play.

If you cannot see the difference between a player that did not move toward the ball at all like Palmer versus HOU and one that goes hard to the ball through a defender taking the ball away from the defender from a several yards away for a TD, I cannot help you.

The absence of Guyton was one of if not the single biggest reason why the HOU game was lost. Seeing Palmer and Moore struggle in the deep passing game was a sad sight to see and pretty strong evidence that Palmer needs to stay in his lane as a reserve that operates in the short and medium passing zones. That certainly is a sight I do not wish to see again.

Also, there is no way that Palmer would have gone through the defender against CIN like Guyton did for the TD. Palmer already proved against CIN that he could be standing right where the ball was, put both hands on it and still not come down with it, while turning a reception into an INT in the process. The plays were in the same game and were the polar opposite of each other with Guyton turning what should have been an INT into a TD and Palmer turning what should have been a reception into an INT.

[Guest]

If Guyton could get open as quickly as Palmer, and Guyton didnt drop as many balls as he has, he’d be thought of more highly. Instead we’ve got Chain explaining to us why 24 yard TD passes don’t count. F-ing amazing.

What part of Palmer's 24 yard TD reception not being the same play as the one Palmer bungled against the Bengals that I was discussing do you not understand?

If I were making a point that Manny Machado has struggled this season when hitting against the Dodgers this year and you stated, "No, you're wrong, he's hitting over .600 against the Reds this year," can you see how that comment would not in any way demonstrate that my statement about Machado was incorrect?

And it would be okay if I stated in response that the comment made about Machado versus the Reds was nonresponsive to my point, right? I assume you can see that, so how come you cannot see that when the exact same type of argumentation flaw is presented when I am talking about Palmer instead of Machado?

Also, your statement about Guyton not getting open as quickly as Palmer is complete BS if you compare the receivers when they run the same pattern. Of course, a WR running a deep pattern is not going to be open as quickly as a WR running a two yard out pattern.

I have already posted the stats that show that Guyton is our best WR at gaining separation on a per play basis. And that includes being better than Allen gaining separation. Yet you make up the false assertions that you posted. Why?

Regarding drops, Guyton had 4 and Herbert still had his highest passer rating when throwing to any of our WRs when he threw the ball to Guyton (115.6), which was fully 17.2 passer rating points higher than when Herbert threw the ball to Palmer (98.4). This could have something to do with the reality that Palmer struggles to gain separation (dead last among our top 4 WRs) versus Guyton being our best WR at gaining separation.