2022 Official Chargers Season Discussion

[Guest]

That’s just the opinions of two guys, but it’s deeply unsettling with regards to getting Penning. Screams DJ Fluker. I’d love to have a tackle that is a plus in the running game, but the real key is being able to pass block and slow down Maxx Crosby or Von Miller or whatever elite pass rusher we’re facing. Ironically, there are some cheap vets who can do a passable job in pass blocking. The big strong maulers are often the sexier types, but we just need someone who can stay between Justin Herbert and the edge rushers coming after him.

The opinions of the two guys are ridiculous. This notion that Penning is a plodder is the most absurd draft take I have heard about a player in some time. It is like saying Justin Herbert possesses below average arm strength. Penning is literally the most athletic OT in this year's draft as evidenced by his having the highest RAS. He is more athletic than Slater. He produced a significantly better three cone test than Slater, which demonstrates his agility.

Slater is better right now because Slater has virtually flawless technique whereas Penning displayed normal technique issues that are common in soon to be rookie OTs in the NFL and, frankly, common for all NFL players in general to have at their various positions, including Herbert. NFL players often fix or substantially improve on these issues even by the time of their pro days and also through an NFL training camp. Technique issues for rookies are the rule, not the exception.

Penning is nothing like Fluker. Fluker had movement issues as evidenced by his 5.31 40 and his 1.90 10 yard split. Penning ran a 4.89 40 and posted a 10 yard split of 1.71. The body types of the players are vastly different as well. They are completely dissimilar players.

If you are looking for a player comparison, Taylor Lewan is more appropriate. Lewan ran a 4.87 40 with a 1.70 split. Lewan is 6' 7" tall and weighs 309 pounds. Penning is 6' 7.125" and weighs 325 pounds. The knock on Lewan entering the league was that he looked a little stiff at times. Sound familiar?

IMO, the biggest difference between Lewan and Penning that I can see is that Penning seems to be very slightly bigger and stronger than Lewan, which is not an unfavorable difference. Lewan has gone on to make three Pro Bowls. He has not been the best OT ever, but he has been very good. I would expect a similar or maybe ever so slightly better career arc for Penning.

I think that is the most reasonable take based upon the information available, not some craziness that Penning is a plodder who is like D.J. Fluker when Penning has the movement skills to play LT in the NFL (as Lewan has), making his movement ability more than adequate to play RT in the NFL.

[eaterfan]

I'm going to change the topic in here a little bit since we seem to have 4 threads about Penning going on and this is the roster build discussion maybe it should go here.

Would you trade next year's first rounder to Philly for one of their 1st round picks this year? Would you do a 1st and 5th? What would it take? The Eagles would probably like to have more ammunition for next year in case they want to move on from Hurts. It would allow the Chargers to take a PON in the first round (RT) and a BPA at DT, WR, CB, Edge, etc. this year and really compete for a Super Bowl with fewer weaknesses on the roster.

[Guest]

You would cut him just for sake of cutting him? If we have someone that can beat him out of a job, fine, send him away. But, right now we don't have someone that's better. It's ridiculous to just cut people that you don't have a replacement for.

I guess my point is that every DL player on the roster and practice squad right now is better than Tillery. The defense played better with an UDFA like Fehoko starting when Tillery was out. PFF actually supports this assertion as well as Fehoko graded higher than Tillery (though not by all that much).

There are veteran minimum contract street free agents available right now that are better than Tillery. Honestly, it would be difficult for a professional DL player to be worse than Tillery.

Here are Tillery's PFF grades: 35.5, 43.9, and 45.9. Just to assist in the appreciation of just how bad Tillery's marks are, here are the grades for a player (Trey Pipkins) known to have struggled over the same time period: 63.3, 54.8, and 68.5. While I am not here to suggest that PFF's grades are in any way a perfect take, I think the general notion that Tillery has been significantly worse than Pipkins is right on the money.

IMO, people place far too much emphasis on the occasional flash play (such as a sack) that Tillery does make, while ignoring that he gets beat badly on most plays and creates big opportunities for opponents that even an average DL player would not allow. Since PFF goes play by play, they capture all of these bad plays. That is why Tillery's grade is so low. I almost do not even want to think about just how bad a player that makes flash plays (that receive favorable grades) has to be most of the time to record such incredibly low PFF grades while also making some nice flash plays.

Simply put, the team is better if/when Tillery never sets foot on the field. It is addition by subtraction.

[Xenos]

Posted this in the Jackson thread and wanted to share here:

https://www.thepowderblues.com/forum/forum/los-angeles-chargers-forum-nfl-forum-padres-forum/the-los-angeles-chargers-forum/1326208-welcome-j-c-jackson-cb-signed-5y-82m?p=1331472#post1331472

[Guest]

I'm going to change the topic in here a little bit since we seem to have 4 threads about Penning going on and this is the roster build discussion maybe it should go here.

Would you trade next year's first rounder to Philly for one of their 1st round picks this year? Would you do a 1st and 5th? What would it take? The Eagles would probably like to have more ammunition for next year in case they want to move on from Hurts. It would allow the Chargers to take a PON in the first round (RT) and a BPA at DT, WR, CB, Edge, etc. this year and really compete for a Super Bowl with fewer weaknesses on the roster.

If I am sitting where the Eagles are, I am not giving up a middle third of the first round pick this year for what should be a bottom third of the first round pick next year unless the compensation fits the draft pick trading value per the chart. Pick #19 is worth 875. Subtracting a round from deferred compensation and projecting us to have the #24 pick in 2023 yields draft pick values of 340 and 150 for our first two rounds of next year's draft. Our third round pick this year is worth 195. That still only puts us as 685 and I see no player worth giving up that much to get anyway.

I would rather trade back and add picks to this year's draft if the player we want is not on the board at #17 or if we feel we can get the player we want later in the draft. And since Telesco has never traded back, I doubt that will happen this year either.

[equivocation]

https://youtu.be/poCZSZMUby4

NIU offense vs NDSU. NDSU gets up big so NIU has to pass and Penning has to pass pro. A lot of his games he only has like 10 pass set reps.

Pass set reps

1:12
1:58
2:05
2:44 (this is a snatch move, his strongest pass pro move)
3:12 (his best set this game)
6:32
6:59
7:28 (does not pick up looper on stunt, gives up strip sack)
7:55 (bad jump set, rusher gets his hands, would have been a sack if the opposite edge rusher didn't get there first)
9:14 (no fucking clue what this is, seems like be blocked the guard then stood around)
9:26 (good jump set, loses hand position on 3rd move)
9:44
9:58
11:06
11:26
11:58 (could have been called here, edge ran a rip but Penning took his feet, which is the exception to the exception)
12:17
12:27 (Penning gets put on his ass, almost a sack)
12:33
12:42
12:51
12:58
13:05
13:21
13:26
13:33 (gives up QB hit to looper again, bad call negates INT)
14:04 (QB hit on one of few speed rushes in game)
14:12 (once again overplays crasher on stunt)
14:27
14:36 (opens outside hip and gives up soft edge at 8 yards, QB does well to step up)
2 more at the end in garbage time. I can't get the time stamps off my phone as I can't drag the bar that close to the end.


32 total reps to look at. 1 sack, 8 pressures, 5 hits, 1 penalty (false start). NDSU had no speed at edge of note. Not even close to NFL caliber. They generate pressure by getting big leads and stunting a lot. Brayden Thomas (9 sacks) is their top EDGE, projected maybe UDFA.

https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/players/2022/brayden-thomas

Ching (2.5 sacks) and Mostaert (3.5 sacks) are their other edge rushers.


One thing you will note is that the ONLY reason he has so many pass sets in this game is that NIU is down by 2 or 3 scores most of the game. Early in the game he has few true pass sets as NIU runs a gimmick offense with lots of RPOs and such. Penning pass blocks down a lot in their base offense rather than a traditional pass pro set. Once they had to go to a passing offense with Penning in a traditional set every snap he gets eaten up by lesser talent. He also over commits to the inside rush and gives up stunts A LOT.


See rep at 8:08. NIU does this a lot, where they bring an extra blocker outside Penning to deal with edge rush and have Penning block down like a guard. This is one reason people project him as a guard.


8:37 forgets to bring his feet on a drive block. This happens several times a game.

Penning has great upper body strength and can really dig out defenders in the run game. He is a poor pass blocker and NIU does not ask him to pass block like an OT much if they can help it.

[Bolt4Knob]

I'm going to change the topic in here a little bit since we seem to have 4 threads about Penning going on and this is the roster build discussion maybe it should go here.

Would you trade next year's first rounder to Philly for one of their 1st round picks this year? Would you do a 1st and 5th? What would it take? The Eagles would probably like to have more ammunition for next year in case they want to move on from Hurts. It would allow the Chargers to take a PON in the first round (RT) and a BPA at DT, WR, CB, Edge, etc. this year and really compete for a Super Bowl with fewer weaknesses on the roster.

No, I don't trust Telesco to value the players he is trading up for. SO far, he is Oh for 4. Granted maybe Staley is a better helper in the draft room

Personally, I think Telesco if anything should be trading back to get more draft capital in Rounds 2-4.

[powderblueboy]

I'm going to change the topic in here a little bit since we seem to have 4 threads about Penning going on and this is the roster build discussion maybe it should go here.

Would you trade next year's first rounder to Philly for one of their 1st round picks this year? Would you do a 1st and 5th? What would it take? The Eagles would probably like to have more ammunition for next year in case they want to move on from Hurts. It would allow the Chargers to take a PON in the first round (RT) and a BPA at DT, WR, CB, Edge, etc. this year and really compete for a Super Bowl with fewer weaknesses on the roster.

You mean move up and grab Penning with one of Philly's picks?

Philly has the 15th & 16th picks....i think you mean the Giants with picks #5 & 7.

Giants would probably ask more than a 1rst for that #7 pick.

[chargeroo]

I guess my point is that every DL player on the roster and practice squad right now is better than Tillery. The defense played better with an UDFA like Fehoko starting when Tillery was out. PFF actually supports this assertion as well as Fehoko graded higher than Tillery (though not by all that much).

There are veteran minimum contract street free agents available right now that are better than Tillery. Honestly, it would be difficult for a professional DL player to be worse than Tillery.

Simply put, the team is better if/when Tillery never sets foot on the field. It is addition by subtraction.

If you are right, it means that our coaching staff doesn't understand the requirements of a DT as well as you do.

After thinking about it, I'm guessing that's not the case. Instead, it appears that you may be wrong. Think it through, do you really think you know more than the coaches?

[Lone Bolt]

I "kinda" like Penning...but I do recognize some rawness there, as some astute posters have noted...still think he is a good prospect...but I wont budge off 17 to get him...no way. If I was willing to be patient with a first round RT, was determined to get a RT in the first round, but thought I would miss out on Penning, I would just stay put and take Raimann, another physically gifted, and strong, prospect. But I doubt that will be the Bolts plan for the draft.

[eaterfan]

You mean move up and grab Penning with one of Philly's picks?

Philly has the 15th & 16th picks....i think you mean the Giants with picks #5 & 7.

Giants would probably ask more than a 1rst for that #7 pick.

I don't really mean trading up. I mean swapping our next year's 1st for their this year's first. Could even be 19. If you need a QB or think you might need a QB next year then what good is a first round pick doing you this year? To them a first round pick next year is more valuable than one this year. It's the opposite of a normal draft because the QB class is so weak.

But the Giants are another potential partner since they have multiple first round picks this year and may be looking for a QB next year, but I think moving up there will be pretty expensive. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the top 3 OTs was there at 7 though.

[equivocation]

I "kinda" like Penning...but I do recognize some rawness there, as some astute posters have noted...still think he is a good prospect...but I wont budge off 17 to get him...no way. If I was willing to be patient with a first round RT, was determined to get a RT in the first round, but thought I would miss out on Penning, I would just stay put and take Raimann, another physically gifted, and strong, prospect. But I doubt that will be the Bolts plan for the draft.

There's a lot to indicate he'd improve with good coaching and he has upside. But that also means he has a low floor. I prefer high floor OL.