Herbert vs His Peers

[Guest]

LOL. This happens often when a huge fan of a player is involved in a conversation where another comparable talent is compared. Try to cut the opposing player (in this case Joe Burrow) down by shifting the conversation into comparing him to a clearly inferior player (Chad Pennington). This would be comparable to a Bengals fan saying Justin Herbert is very much like Kerry Collins or Drew Bledsoe--big, strong-armed quarterbacks who were decent Pro Bowlers a couple of times but not nearly as gifted.

It is absolutely hilarious that you fail to realize that early Pennington was not inferior to Burrow. The exact same points people cite in praise of Burrow (accuracy, passer rating, etc.) were things used to praise Pennington before his major injuries. You simply do not comprehend that pre-injury Pennington was an above average QB just like Burrow is now.

Your Herbert comparisons are ridiculous.

[Guest]

Jerry Rice's 4.71 forty time is relevant because you said Pennington was faster and more elusive than Burrow and it was proven with his 4.8, which is ridiculous. A forty time does not show how well a player maneuvers with pads on trying to get away from defenders on a football field.

Your comparison between Josh Allen and Russell Wilson is actually irrelevant because they are both very good scramblers. In Wilson's case he is more like Fran Tarkenton, so he'll run all over the place, well behind the line of scrimmage, and won't give up on a play so easily. Allen is bigger and stronger, and he's more committed to run straight forward on his designed runs. Wilson is more undisciplined and loses a lot of yardage because of it. But that doesn't matter at all when comparing Burrow and Pennington, which is idiotic to begin with, since it's clear Burrow is a much better scrambler than Pennington ever was. It's proven in the fact that Burrow ran for much more yardage in college and will probably finish his career with much more rushing yards in the NFL. Pennington never was faster on a football field, and the fact you made up that Burrow ran a 4.9 (which I didn't even care about) just goes to show the length you will go to not admit you're wrong.

Pennington was a first-round pick, 18th overall, in what was considered a very weak year for quarterbacks (nobody knew what Tom Brady was at that point). The Jets drafted Shaun Ellis and John Abraham before Pennington in that first round, so clearly they weren't thinking Pennington was as special as the Cincinnati Bengals and many other teams did of Joe Burrow, who was clearly a superior prospect coming out of college than Pennington was from Marshall. You don't pick a quarterback after you take a defensive end and a outside linebacker if you think the quarterback is going to be great.

Pennington's first year was cause for a lot of excitement, but after he came back from a broken left wrist he suffered in the 2003 preseason, he was getting figured out. He couldn't throw the ball through the Meadowlands' winds effectively in New Jersey, which was never more evident than when he regurgitated five interceptions against the Patriots on a Sunday Night late in 2003, the same night Joe Namath made a drunk pass at Suzy Kolber. He never matched the success he had in 2002, when he had his career high of 22 touchdown passes. From then on he was a mediocre quarterback who could never reach 20 touchdown passes in a season again. Again, Burrow is clearly much better than Pennington ever was.

I don't see how comparing Burrow's and Herbert's rushing yards undercut my point. Neither of them had only the 61 rushing yards Pennington had in college, which you won't acknowledge as an example of how he was clearly inferior as a runner to Burrow.

Rivers was one of the best quarterbacks at evading rushers inside the pocket and getting the ball out to his receivers. That's how he was able to get sacked only half as much as he should have. Burrow is clearly not as great as Rivers in that regard, nor is Herbert, at this time. But the comparison is unfair right now, since Rivers was on the bench his first two years, not playing behind the current Cincinnati Bengals offensive line that you are eventually going to stretch out as being as great as the 1990s legendary Dallas Cowboys blocking units. Who knows how many sacks Rivers would have taken if he had started from Day One?

40 times do matter because speed contributes to ability to avoid a pass rush, but Rice was not a QB. You have said that Rivers was very elusive in the pocket, more so than Herbert. Yet, there are many sacks that happened to Rivers that never would have happened to Herbert. Gee, I wonder why that is. Could it possibly be that Herbert is faster than Rivers and can outrun defenders that Rivers could not?

My issue with Rice is that he was not a QB, so you are comparing a WR to QBs, which is not a relevant positional comparison.

Allen and Wilson were cited to demonstrate the irrelevance of rushing yards in determining the ability of a QB to move since you repeatedly, and incorrectly, kept making reference to that as if it meant anything.

I did not make up anything about Burrow's running time. That is a time assigned to him by multiple sources. Also, anyone with eyes can see that he is slow for an NFL QB. He himself admits his lack of physical gifts. When a player runs like Burrow, it is not too difficult to see that other players like Herbert and Allen are faster.

Who cares about the hype each QB carried entering the NFL? That is irrelevant. Burrow was very overhyped. Pennington was slightly underhyped because he played for Marshall. The point is that Pennington was the first QB taken in the 2000 NFL draft and he played very well early, doing something that Burrow did not do--lead the NFL in passer rating in his first year as a starter. I have only compared Burrow to pre-injury Pennington, so your entire discussion about Pennington's post-injury career is irrelevant since I limited the scope of my discussion at all times.

And yes, I know that you do not see how your presentation of college rushing stats undercuts your point about the relevance of QB rushing stats. So please consider that Herbert has far greater elusiveness than Burrow does and yet the stats you cited showed Burrow rushing for yards than Herbert. I believe that is great evidence of exactly the point I was making about the irrelevance of QB rushing yards in terms of ability to avoid the pass rush.

In addition, part of Burrow's inability to avoid the pass rush is his tendency to hold the ball too long, which he himself admitted during his rookie season and which was as plain as day during the recently concluded playoffs.

[equivocation]

Justin Herbert is good at football.

[DerwinBosa]

It is absolutely hilarious that you fail to realize that early Pennington was not inferior to Burrow. The exact same points people cite in praise of Burrow (accuracy, passer rating, etc.) were things used to praise Pennington before his major injuries. You simply do not comprehend that pre-injury Pennington was an above average QB just like Burrow is now.

Your Herbert comparisons are ridiculous.

After reading this, and how you believe Tyler Boyd is a #1 receiver, it's time to stop reading what you have written and will write on this topic. Hopefully you have something worthwhile to read on topics such as free agency and the draft.

[DerwinBosa]

I shall argue that if not for the Rams unrelenting suffocation of the Bengals’ Offense, their own inability to run the ball would have caused them to lose the last SB. That said, run-only teams are doomed - better to have a great pass attack than a great rush attack in 2022. Since OL is so key to both, its unusual a team is great at one and horrible at the other.

And many can argue that, if McVay didn't run the ball as often, Matthew Stafford would have thrown the game away, as he had done multiple times this past season, and almost did in the NFC Championship Game.

Nobody has ever said the Chargers should be a run-only team. The hope is we can find a true starting caliber right tackle and a running back capable of gaining at least 1,200 yards, creating a better balance in the offense, which will actually make Justin Herbert a better quarterback and give him a better chance to win big. I don't see how anyone wouldn't want that over Justin Herbert throwing it 45 to 55 times a week, putting the team at risk of never being able to truly win a game by running the football when the passing attack gets shut down or contained enough by the better teams in the NFL.

This is common sense. Ever hear, "The running game is a quarterback's best friend"?

But maybe you're more concerned with Justin Herbert breaking passing records than the team winning the Super Bowl. Everyone has a right to root as he or she pleases.

[Maniaque 6]

Marino, Fouts and Rivers are 0-1 at SuperBowl !

[dmac_bolt]

Nobody is saying that all of CIN's sacks are Burrow's fault, but a significant number are and we saw that last, during the regular season in 2021 and in the most recent playoffs. That would be silly. Moreover, Burrow has admitted to this weakness

In the Super Bowl, it was perfectly appropriate that CIN's final drive ended because Burrow pulled the ball back down instead of throwing to the open Uzomah with just the OL blocking for him (no receivers held in to chip or block) and a short drop. It was awful situational awareness on Burrow's part.

We do not have much of a disagreement as to where Burrow places. I have said all along that he is anywhere from #8 to #12 and when I go through the exercise of ranking closely grouped QBs, I think I have Burrow at #11 overall. Nobody is saying he is horrible. He is just not an elite QB at this point like Herbert is.

Finally, Pennington gets a bad wrap because everyone remembers him struggling after multiple major shoulder injuries. What everyone forgets is that Pennington led the NFL in QB rating and completion percentage before his injuries--you know, basically the same accuracy and passer rating stuff that people here use to heap praise on Burrow. Early Pennington and early Burrow are actually very similar.

I agree completely his final pass was a double clutch choke. He had to make an immediate decisive quick toss to the open receiver and he froze up. The play was there. I expect he gets better at this each year though, you seem to consign him to never land. Or not - thats my read of your posts.

Add up the entire SB, if he had the same protection that Stafford got, Cincy probably wins. Again, just guessing an unknowable …

[dmac_bolt]

Marino, Fouts and Rivers are 0-1 at SuperBowl !

They suck

[Velo]

Do you remember the first game of the 2020 season? The only game of his NFL career Justin Herbert didn't start. It was Tyrod Taylor against Joe Burrow in Burrow's first ever game in the NFL. At the time, we were not expecting to see Herbert play for quite awhile. He was on nobody's mind that week as the Chargers traveled to Cincinnati. Burrow was effective in his first game and he burned the Chargers' D on a sprint to the end zone from about 20 yds out. Although he didn't throw a TD pass, and the Chargers won when the Bengals' kicker missed an easy FG, you got the sense that Burrow was going to be a star QB in the NFL. So many fans on this board, who had severely criticized the decision to draft Herbert, probably thought Herbert couldn't carry Burrow's jock. Little did we know...

[Boltjolt]

Do you remember the first game of the 2020 season? The only game of his NFL career Justin Herbert didn't start. It was Tyrod Taylor against Joe Burrow in Burrow's first ever game in the NFL. At the time, we were not expecting to see Herbert play for quite awhile. He was on nobody's mind that week as the Chargers traveled to Cincinnati. Burrow was effective in his first game and he burned the Chargers' D on a sprint to the end zone from about 20 yds out. Although he didn't throw a TD pass, and the Chargers won when the Bengals' kicker missed an easy FG, you got the sense that Burrow was going to be a star QB in the NFL. So many fans on this board, who had severely criticized the decision to draft Herbert, probably thought Herbert couldn't carry Burrow's jock. Little did we know...

I was a Burrow fan but I didn't have distain for Herbert.

But I did think he would sit the season as a rookie because I thought he needed work. Turns out he didn't need the footwork as bad as I figured.

I think he shocked everybody with how well he played so early.

And in spite of what anybody else says, Burrow is going to be an elite QB in this league. Neither he or Herbert are finished products and Burrow only played half his rookie season til he got hurt.

[Velo]

I was a Burrow fan but I didn't have distain for Herbert.

But I did think he would sit the season as a rookie because I thought he needed work. Turns out he didn't need the footwork as bad as I figured.

I think he shocked everybody with how well he played so early.

And in spite of what anybody else says, Burrow is going to be an elite QB in this league. Neither he or Herbert are finished products and Burrow only played half his rookie season til he got hurt.

100 percent agreed.

[Guest]

After reading this, and how you believe Tyler Boyd is a #1 receiver, it's time to stop reading what you have written and will write on this topic. Hopefully you have something worthwhile to read on topics such as free agency and the draft.

I characterized Tyler Boyd as a poor man's #1 WR with multiple 1,000 yard plus seasons to his credit (post #207). My statement was and is entirely accurate.

Boyd actually was the #1 WR for the Bengals in 2018 and 2019, topping 1,000 yards in each season. He led the Bengals in targets and receptions in 2018, 2019 and 2020, but was beat out in receiving yards by 67 yards by Tee Higgins in 2020 after leading the team in that category in 2018 and 2019.

Clearly, he can be (and already has been) a low end #1 WR for an NFL team, which is exactly how I characterized him.