Herbert vs His Peers

[dmac_bolt]

Lol, somebody please tell Chain that the misconceptions and cluelessness are his.

Dude is a stat guy.. that's all he has. He doesn't understand the game. He just knows numbers for his arguments.....like a petty 40 time for Pennington and Burrow ... For which Burrow never even ran but made one up lol.

Geezus even on ignore I have to see some of his jibberish.

Chain’s Reply: Burrow can’t even run 40 yards, pathetic!

[Guest]

Of course you equate elusiveness and game speed to a 40 time, a drill that requires a quarterback to run in a straight line with no pads on. Unbelievable. LOL. Do you think Jerry Rice was slow, too, after he ran a 4.71?

Pennington was never a scrambler. He rushed for 61 yards in college.He was a pocket passer with a very weak arm, even prior to injury, but excelled to a certain level in the Bill Walsh system because of his accuracy. That 4.8 time you're clinging to was probably much slower as he got deeper into the NFL, since picking up yards with his legs was never his game.

Burrow rushed for 820 yards in college. Justin Herbert had 560 as an Oregon Duck. (Note: I'm not saying Burrow is faster than Herbert by providing this fact). Burrow, while not Lamar Jackson, is not Philip Rivers or Bernie Kosar,. Even after his season-ending injury as a rookie, Burrow is capable of making plays with his legs. You choose not to see that because you don't want to admit you're wrong.

Rice is irrelevant to the QBs and there is dispute regarding his actual 40 time (anywhere from 4.5 to 4.7). Tell me, do you ever present relevant information when discussing points? I mean with every single point comes a steady stream of totally irrelevant information.

Of course, you have completely ignored that rushing yards are irrelevant to the physical ability to run and get away from the pass rush. Again, at the same age, Josh Allen could not carry Russell Wilson's jock in terms of running and yet he rushed for more yards and a higher YPC, but you go ahead and keep making stupid references to Burrow's rushing yards as if that meant anything so that you can remain consistent in presenting totally irrelevant information on every point as you did with your asinine Super Bowl references to pass/run distributions instead of looking at whole season data because everyone (who is clueless) knows that a single game example represents a superior sample size to a whole season. Your college rushing yards comparison of Burrow to the vastly physically superior Herbert only reinforces the point. But it is hilarious that you cite an example that completely undercuts your point and yet you fail to understand that. SMH....

The simple fact is that Pennington was faster than Burrow is now. You are the one that will not admit that truth because you know that does not fit at all with your ridiculous views. The simple fact is that Pennington's arm when he was drafted was the same as Burrow's arm is now (slightly below average to low average). That is why Pennington was a first round draft pick. To the extent you believe to the contrary, you are just ignorant of the true facts. Neither QB ever had even quite a league average arm among starting QBs.

And, believe me, I know that Burrow is not Rivers. Rivers never allowed himself to take 51 sacks in a season in a 17 year career despite having horrible OLs for the vast majority of his career. But Rivers was not habitually guilty of holding the ball too long as Burrow has been. Kosar also never let himself be sacked 51 times in a season.

[Guest]

Burrow didn't even run a 40 at the combine or his proday lol. C Mon man,. .Irrelevant anyways.

All that above from Chain is irrelevant. Who cares if Wilson is faster than Allen? Wilson gets sacked more than any QB in the league because he holds the ball too long. ...even after years in the league.
Burrow will be far better than Pennington wished he were.

Chain just making shit up again to talk crap about Burrow.

More ridiculous points made by someone proving he does not understand what has been said.

Burrow's 40 time was estimated by multiple sources to be in the 4.9 range. Burrow specifically stated that his physical abilities were "limited" compared to some of the QBs in his draft class. Even he admits exactly what I have been stating all along.

The point of the rushing yards comparison was, of course, to show that that is irrelevant to the QB's ability to escape a pass rush. Wilson is far more elusive than Allen, but Allen has more rushing yards. Rushing yards do not prove anything, exactly the opposite of what DerwinBosa is suggesting. I could just as easily have cited Kyler Murray's 2021 stats for the same point. But who knows, maybe DerwinBosa will claim that Allen is more elusive that Wilson or Murray.

In any event, it seems like you are are the only one making up stuff.

[Bolt-O]

Chaincrusher, Boltjolt doesn't read your posts... so don't reply to his.

[Guest]

If burrow was on LAC, the forum would be trashing how shitty Herbert is. (Just a theory …)

If Burrow was on this team last year with Lynn coaching, would we have won any games with him at QB after Taylor's lung got punctured? I think we would have gone 4-13 this year with Burrow (no way we beat KC, CLE, LV, PHI and PIT with Burrow).

I think the Bengals probably would be Super Bowl champions right now if they had Herbert. And I seriously doubt we would be trashing Herbert because his superiority over Burrow would be that much more obvious if Herbert had 3 #1 WRs, a solid defense, and a great kicker supporting him.

[Guest]

Chaincrusher, Boltjolt doesn't read your posts... so don't reply to his.

Bolt-O, your post does not make sense to me. I am replying to his posts that specifically reference me and my posts. Why should he be able to openly criticize both me and my positions without my ability to respond?

Or is the standard that if I put someone on ignore, I can make whatever weak BS comments I can about the person and his posts with impunity?

[Bolt-O]

Bolt-O, your post does not make sense to me. I am replying to his posts that specifically reference me and my posts. Why should he be able to openly criticize both me and my positions without my ability to respond?

Or is the standard that if I put someone on ignore, I can make whatever weak BS comments I can about the person and his posts with impunity?

I will make this very clear to you. Do not respond to Boltjolt's posts, otherwise I will just unapprove the posts. I will also do the same with his posts, if they reference you.

It does seem to me that you are now baiting and arguing, vs. engaging in dialog. I am also seeing that with people who are responding to you directly. I want this to stop.

[Guest]

I will make this very clear to you. Do not respond to Boltjolt's posts, otherwise I will just unapprove the posts. I will also do the same with his posts, if they reference you.

It does seem to me that you are now baiting and arguing, vs. engaging in dialog. I am also seeing that with people who are responding to you directly. I want this to stop.

Perfect. It seems fair if it works both ways. Thank you for taking that approach.

[DerwinBosa]

Rice is irrelevant to the QBs and there is dispute regarding his actual 40 time (anywhere from 4.5 to 4.7). Tell me, do you ever present relevant information when discussing points? I mean with every single point comes a steady stream of totally irrelevant information.

Of course, you have completely ignored that rushing yards are irrelevant to the physical ability to run and get away from the pass rush. Again, at the same age, Josh Allen could not carry Russell Wilson's jock in terms of running and yet he rushed for more yards and a higher YPC, but you go ahead and keep making stupid references to Burrow's rushing yards as if that meant anything so that you can remain consistent in presenting totally irrelevant information on every point as you did with your asinine Super Bowl references to pass/run distributions instead of looking at whole season data because everyone (who is clueless) knows that a single game example represents a superior sample size to a whole season. Your college rushing yards comparison of Burrow to the vastly physically superior Herbert only reinforces the point. But it is hilarious that you cite an example that completely undercuts your point and yet you fail to understand that. SMH....

The simple fact is that Pennington was faster than Burrow is now. You are the one that will not admit that truth because you know that does not fit at all with your ridiculous views. The simple fact is that Pennington's arm when he was drafted was the same as Burrow's arm is now (slightly below average to low average). That is why Pennington was a first round draft pick. To the extent you believe to the contrary, you are just ignorant of the true facts. Neither QB ever had even quite a league average arm among starting QBs.

And, believe me, I know that Burrow is not Rivers. Rivers never allowed himself to take 51 sacks in a season in a 17 year career despite having horrible OLs for the vast majority of his career. But Rivers was not habitually guilty of holding the ball too long as Burrow has been. Kosar also never let himself be sacked 51 times in a season.

Jerry Rice's 4.71 forty time is relevant because you said Pennington was faster and more elusive than Burrow and it was proven with his 4.8, which is ridiculous. A forty time does not show how well a player maneuvers with pads on trying to get away from defenders on a football field.

Your comparison between Josh Allen and Russell Wilson is actually irrelevant because they are both very good scramblers. In Wilson's case he is more like Fran Tarkenton, so he'll run all over the place, well behind the line of scrimmage, and won't give up on a play so easily. Allen is bigger and stronger, and he's more committed to run straight forward on his designed runs. Wilson is more undisciplined and loses a lot of yardage because of it. But that doesn't matter at all when comparing Burrow and Pennington, which is idiotic to begin with, since it's clear Burrow is a much better scrambler than Pennington ever was. It's proven in the fact that Burrow ran for much more yardage in college and will probably finish his career with much more rushing yards in the NFL. Pennington never was faster on a football field, and the fact you made up that Burrow ran a 4.9 (which I didn't even care about) just goes to show the length you will go to not admit you're wrong.

Pennington was a first-round pick, 18th overall, in what was considered a very weak year for quarterbacks (nobody knew what Tom Brady was at that point). The Jets drafted Shaun Ellis and John Abraham before Pennington in that first round, so clearly they weren't thinking Pennington was as special as the Cincinnati Bengals and many other teams did of Joe Burrow, who was clearly a superior prospect coming out of college than Pennington was from Marshall. You don't pick a quarterback after you take a defensive end and a outside linebacker if you think the quarterback is going to be great.

Pennington's first year was cause for a lot of excitement, but after he came back from a broken left wrist he suffered in the 2003 preseason, he was getting figured out. He couldn't throw the ball through the Meadowlands' winds effectively in New Jersey, which was never more evident than when he regurgitated five interceptions against the Patriots on a Sunday Night late in 2003, the same night Joe Namath made a drunk pass at Suzy Kolber. He never matched the success he had in 2002, when he had his career high of 22 touchdown passes. From then on he was a mediocre quarterback who could never reach 20 touchdown passes in a season again. Again, Burrow is clearly much better than Pennington ever was.

I don't see how comparing Burrow's and Herbert's rushing yards undercut my point. Neither of them had only the 61 rushing yards Pennington had in college, which you won't acknowledge as an example of how he was clearly inferior as a runner to Burrow.

Rivers was one of the best quarterbacks at evading rushers inside the pocket and getting the ball out to his receivers. That's how he was able to get sacked only half as much as he should have. Burrow is clearly not as great as Rivers in that regard, nor is Herbert, at this time. But the comparison is unfair right now, since Rivers was on the bench his first two years, not playing behind the current Cincinnati Bengals offensive line that you are eventually going to stretch out as being as great as the 1990s legendary Dallas Cowboys blocking units. Who knows how many sacks Rivers would have taken if he had started from Day One?

[dmac_bolt]

Did this odd thread hijack really devolve to “Is Burrows worse than Penning”? Wow. Who can possibly believe that?

I agree Burrow needs to learn to get rid of the ball faster in some situations. I don’t agree all sacks are his fault, thats juvenile non-analysis. I watched the SB, the Rams front were hitting him in less than 2 seconds ALOT.

He’s still a top 10 QB today, just watch him throw the rock, he hits receivers crisp and in stride. He will never be Herbie - who is the undisputed unchallengeable #1 Golden God and on path to explant the current GOAT … just give it time. “Not better than Herbie” applies to every QB that ever lived, i don’t see the reason to uniquely bludgeon poor Joe for 30 pages for this act of God.

oh, and I’m a Herbie fanboy - prone to hyperbole, impervious to extraneous influence. Don’t bother trying. Wasted time.

[DerwinBosa]

Did this odd thread hijack really devolve to “Is Burrows worse than Penning”? Wow. Who can possibly believe that?

I agree Burrow needs to learn to get rid of the ball faster in some situations. I don’t agree all sacks are his fault, thats juvenile non-analysis. I watched the SB, the Rams front were hitting him in less than 2 seconds ALOT.

He’s still a top 10 QB today, just watch him throw the rock, he hits receivers crisp and in stride. He will never be Herbie - who is the undisputed unchallengeable #1 Golden God and on path to explant the current GOAT … just give it time. “Not better than Herbie” applies to every QB that ever lived, i don’t see the reason to uniquely bludgeon poor Joe for 30 pages for this act of God.

oh, and I’m a Herbie fanboy - prone to hyperbole, impervious to extraneous influence. Don’t bother trying. Wasted time.

LOL. This happens often when a huge fan of a player is involved in a conversation where another comparable talent is compared. Try to cut the opposing player (in this case Joe Burrow) down by shifting the conversation into comparing him to a clearly inferior player (Chad Pennington). This would be comparable to a Bengals fan saying Justin Herbert is very much like Kerry Collins or Drew Bledsoe--big, strong-armed quarterbacks who were decent Pro Bowlers a couple of times but not nearly as gifted.

[Guest]

Did this odd thread hijack really devolve to “Is Burrows worse than Penning”? Wow. Who can possibly believe that?

I agree Burrow needs to learn to get rid of the ball faster in some situations. I don’t agree all sacks are his fault, thats juvenile non-analysis. I watched the SB, the Rams front were hitting him in less than 2 seconds ALOT.

He’s still a top 10 QB today, just watch him throw the rock, he hits receivers crisp and in stride. He will never be Herbie - who is the undisputed unchallengeable #1 Golden God and on path to explant the current GOAT … just give it time. “Not better than Herbie” applies to every QB that ever lived, i don’t see the reason to uniquely bludgeon poor Joe for 30 pages for this act of God.

oh, and I’m a Herbie fanboy - prone to hyperbole, impervious to extraneous influence. Don’t bother trying. Wasted time.

Nobody is saying that all of CIN's sacks are Burrow's fault, but a significant number are and we saw that last, during the regular season in 2021 and in the most recent playoffs. That would be silly. Moreover, Burrow has admitted to this weakness

In the Super Bowl, it was perfectly appropriate that CIN's final drive ended because Burrow pulled the ball back down instead of throwing to the open Uzomah with just the OL blocking for him (no receivers held in to chip or block) and a short drop. It was awful situational awareness on Burrow's part.

We do not have much of a disagreement as to where Burrow places. I have said all along that he is anywhere from #8 to #12 and when I go through the exercise of ranking closely grouped QBs, I think I have Burrow at #11 overall. Nobody is saying he is horrible. He is just not an elite QB at this point like Herbert is.

Finally, Pennington gets a bad wrap because everyone remembers him struggling after multiple major shoulder injuries. What everyone forgets is that Pennington led the NFL in QB rating and completion percentage before his injuries--you know, basically the same accuracy and passer rating stuff that people here use to heap praise on Burrow. Early Pennington and early Burrow are actually very similar.