2023 Official Roster Build Thread - The Initial 53 / Practice Squad

[dmac_bolt]

I get what you're saying, although I think picking Floyd over John Stallworth is a stretch. And I love Floyd. The other side of the argument for that is Stallworth and the rest of the receivers from that era didn't have year-round training from their teenage years all the way through their entire careers. The weight training wasn't the same. There have been so many advancements they didn't have in comparison to Odell Beckham (who has what many consider the most impressive catch in NFL history) and the rest of the more gifted receivers now. What would Stallworth be if he had the same opportunities and training that today's receivers do now? We'll never know.

Regardless, Stallworth was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2002, two years before Floyd was drafted, 11 before Keenan. Back then Stallworth was considered a Hall of Fame wide receiver because there weren't that many to contend with. Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, and Cris Carter (he came back with the Miami Dolphins in 2002) were still playing. Michael Irvin and Andre Reed had just retired and weren't eligible yet (neither went in on the first ballot, and Reed had to wait seven years to be inducted). There were a bunch (Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Isaac Bruce, Marvin Harrison, and so on) still in their primes. Are they supposed to remove Stallworth from the Hall of Fame because of that? Or does that mean they have to induct 10-15 Hall of Famers each year just so someone like Keenan can eventually get in? I say of course not to both. Keep it simple. Keenan in the era he's played is not a Hall of Famer.

I agree times and the passing game in particular were very different and its impossible to retrospectively grade 1970s/80s receivers to 2020's standards. But the idea they should be evaluated more highly because they didn't work as hard is a joke. I give no quarter to the fact that yesterday's athletes hung out boozing and smoking and took the off-seasons on vacation where today's athletes work harder and longer, train better, eat better diets, etc. That is a plus to today's athletes in my book.

There are a few Steelers that are in the HOF simply because of their dynastic reign, vs personal HOF level of accomplishments, thats just fact, its human outcome of a human process. HOF selection award is not supposed to be a Playoffs or SB Player of the Game award, its compiling a lifetime cumulative accomplishment over and above all other players for an entire career.

[Heatmiser]

I agree times and the passing game in particular were very different and its impossible to retrospectively grade 1970s/80s receivers to 2020's standards. But the idea they should be evaluated more highly because they didn't work as hard is a joke. I give no quarter to the fact that yesterday's athletes hung out boozing and smoking and took the off-seasons on vacation where today's athletes work harder and longer, train better, eat better diets, etc. That is a plus to today's athletes in my book.

There are a few Steelers that are in the HOF simply because of their dynastic reign, vs personal HOF level of accomplishments, thats just fact, its human outcome of a human process. HOF selection award is not supposed to be a Playoffs or SB Player of the Game award, its compiling a lifetime cumulative accomplishment over and above all other players for an entire career.

I watched the Steelers of the 70s, where most of those HOFers came from. They are all legit in my book. Each of them dominated their position when they played.
Joe Greene
Mel Blount
Jack Ham
Franco Harris
Terry Bradshaw
Jack Lambert
Donnie Shell
Mike Webster

Stallworth and Swann have always been questioned because of stats. But if you watched Swann play live, you might think differently. Stallworth has better numbers but was not the better receiver.

And it wasn't all boozin and taking vacations in the offseasons. In those days, most of those guys did not make enough playing football and took on summer jobs working for car dealers or doing other stuff to earn some extra money. It wasn't like it is now. But yeah, Jack Lambert never lifted weights and he smoked cigarettes alla time even sometimes at practice! But he would beat the living crap out of you, never took a play off and was one of the best MLB to ever play.

TG

[dmac_bolt]

I watched the Steelers of the 70s, where most of those HOFers came from. They are all legit in my book. Each of them dominated their position when they played.
Joe Greene
Mel Blount
Jack Ham
Franco Harris
Terry Bradshaw
Jack Lambert
Donnie Shell
Mike Webster

Stallworth and Swann have always been questioned because of stats. But if you watched Swann play live, you might think differently. Stallworth has better numbers but was not the better receiver.

And it wasn't all boozin and taking vacations in the offseasons. In those days, most of those guys did not make enough playing football and took on summer jobs working for car dealers or doing other stuff to earn some extra money. It wasn't like it is now. But yeah, Jack Lambert never lifted weights and he smoked cigarettes alla time even sometimes at practice! But he would beat the living crap out of you, never took a play off and was one of the best MLB to ever play.

TG

I watched them too.
I didn’t point to anyone in particular, I didn’t think Stallworth or Swann put up HOF career numbers but I didn’t compare them to their contemporaries so ?. Doesn’t matter, they are in and shal stay.

I still don’t care if or why they didn’t train in the off season. Thats a heart warming personal interest fact but not a criteria for HOF, modern players shouldn’t be downgraded because they work harder and longer

[powderblueboy]

I watched the Steelers of the 70s, where most of those HOFers came from. They are all legit in my book. Each of them dominated their position when they played.
Joe Greene
Mel Blount
Jack Ham
Franco Harris
Terry Bradshaw
Jack Lambert
Donnie Shell
Mike Webster

Stallworth and Swann have always been questioned because of stats. But if you watched Swann play live, you might think differently. Stallworth has better numbers but was not the better receiver.

And it wasn't all boozin and taking vacations in the offseasons. In those days, most of those guys did not make enough playing football and took on summer jobs working for car dealers or doing other stuff to earn some extra money. It wasn't like it is now. But yeah, Jack Lambert never lifted weights and he smoked cigarettes alla time even sometimes at practice! But he would beat the living crap out of you, never took a play off and was one of the best MLB to ever play.

TG

That chainsmoking, unpumped, version of Lambert would still be a 3 down linebacker in today's game.

Great story told by Elway, as a 1rst year qb, about looking up at the toothless Lambert slobbering over him after a sack,
and wondering whether football was right for him.

[21&500]

There's a general rule of thumb when it comes to the HOF that I'm a big fan of. It's not perfect, but I like it.
It asks the question, "Can you tell the story of football without mentioning them?"
Obviously, it depends on how thorough you "tell the story of football"
But I can easily describe how the Ravens won their first superbowl without mentioning dilfer or any WR.
We can't describe the San Diego Chargers pre-Reid era without mentioning Keenan Allen's importance in the Rivers era and his bridge of a career in helping Herbert establish himself as an elite QB as a rookie. He's probably the only Chargers WR in his time worth mentioning.

So curse at KA as I may, I don't deny he's a HOFer in my little book.

[Heatmiser]

The Patriots just released James Robinson, who they signed just a few months ago to a two year deal.I liked him a lot with the Jags, then he ran into the Urban Meyer nightmare sequence, then tore his Achilles, then got traded to the Jets and has bounced around a bit. Still only 24. Must be something wrong with him? Can’t seem to hold a job but maybe could test him out here?

TG

[Velo]

The Patriots just released James Robinson, who they signed just a few months ago to a two year deal.I liked him a lot with the Jags, then he ran into the Urban Meyer nightmare sequence, then tore his Achilles, then got traded to the Jets and has bounced around a bit. Still only 24. Must be something wrong with him? Can’t seem to hold a job but maybe could test him out here?

TG

He pummeled the Chargers' defense when he was a rookie in 2020. I remember then wondering why our 4th round pick is so inferior to a UDFA the Jags found. He must not have physically anymore what he had when he was a rookie.

Here he is against the Chargers in 2020. There always seem to be a highlight video for running backs after they face the Chargers' defense.

[blueman]

It's an extremely small sample size, but I keep thinking about how the defense looked in those first two weeks against the Raiders and Chiefs. The front seven gave up some yards on the ground, but were good enough to execute Staley's philosophy. Bosa and Mack together were very disruptive and we held down the Chiefs in KC about as well as you can hope for. I'm pretty confident in our defense if our guys are actually healthy, the problem is we seem to suffer more injuries than other teams and we're less able to withstand injury than other teams.

Really more about the quality of players we lose than how many, hard to field elite units without elite players.

[DerwinBosa]

I agree times and the passing game in particular were very different and its impossible to retrospectively grade 1970s/80s receivers to 2020's standards. But the idea they should be evaluated more highly because they didn't work as hard is a joke. I give no quarter to the fact that yesterday's athletes hung out boozing and smoking and took the off-seasons on vacation where today's athletes work harder and longer, train better, eat better diets, etc. That is a plus to today's athletes in my book.

There are a few Steelers that are in the HOF simply because of their dynastic reign, vs personal HOF level of accomplishments, thats just fact, its human outcome of a human process. HOF selection award is not supposed to be a Playoffs or SB Player of the Game award, its compiling a lifetime cumulative accomplishment over and above all other players for an entire career.

I'm not a fan of the 1970s Steelers. I'm not here to defend Swann and Stallworth. I don't care about either of one of them. But I think saying today's athletes are more dedicated is false. Lance Alworth would have focused on football all year round and had the best trainers working with him during his prime if he got paid like Keenan Allen and there were all of today's luxuries available to the players in the 1960s and 1970s. In addition to that, Alworth not having to worry about getting his head ripped off while going across the middle in today's era with these rules? Forget it. And while it's true that many players were "boozing and smoking" during the offseasons in the 1960s and 1970s, many of today's athletes are doing a lot worse during their time off.

[DerwinBosa]

This point has actually been widely discussed, at least from time to time, and not just regarding the NFL, but other pro Halls of Fame, too..

When players who aren't truly great end up in the Hall of Fame, it dilutes the entire institution. I'd support the idea of there being a 'Heritage Wing' in the Hall of Fame, for players who were legends of their eras but didn't produce epic numbers.

The idea has been advanced of there being a finite maximum number of players in the Hall of Fame, and for every new one inducted after that number is reached, one must be removed. The removed player could easily belong in the Heritage Wing. lol

I think the current voters for the Pro Football Hall of Fame are the worst. In my opinion that's a bigger problem than Lynn Swann being in with 336 receptions during an era which quarterbacks threw a lot fewer passes. I think it will only get worse, with undeserving quarterbacks of this era getting in over players who were more impressive at other positions. I already mentioned Patrick Willis and many wide receivers, but there are plenty of other great players who will probably get snubbed once they're eligible (Earl Thomas, Haloti Ngata, and Luke Kuechly come to mind).

[Bolt4Knob]

I think the current voters for the Pro Football Hall of Fame are the worst. In my opinion that's a bigger problem than Lynn Swann being in with 336 receptions during an era which quarterbacks threw a lot fewer passes. I think it will only get worse, with undeserving quarterbacks of this era getting in over players who were more impressive at other positions. I already mentioned Patrick Willis and many wide receivers, but there are plenty of other great players who will probably get snubbed once they're eligible (Earl Thomas, Haloti Ngata, and Luke Kuechly come to mind).

I think the Hall of Fame Voting has a few flaws these days
1) the coverage of the NFL is 24/7/365. Highlight shows, pre game shows ,post game shows, ESPN, NFLNetwork, Sirius. These players get talked about ad nauseum and highlights are discussed. All the talk can over-value players

2) A player is presented at the final vote. Like the beat writer from the Colts did Peyton Manning. He said, Peyton Manning and that was it. Other guys have powerpoints and speeches to persuade the otehr voters in teh room. I say 'do you got gosh darn job and learn about the players. Also Pro Bowls are included - thats stupid. Who cares ifyou make the Pro Bowl - half the league makes the pro bowl these days with players opting out.

3) Minimum number of players to get in is 4. What if 4 aren't worthy - somebody is getting in

I know the Halls of Fame are different and the LPGA can operate differently but its all performance based. You get the points, you are in. You don't, you aren't. I like it. I get the NFL can;t do it but I like

[pigskin]

Also Pro Bowls are included - thats stupid. Who cares ifyou make the Pro Bowl - half the league makes the pro bowl these days with players opting out.

Case in point Tyler Huntley, the Raven's BACK UP qb made the Pro Bowl last year.