Offensive Line Discussion

[Budsman]

The only one currently missing is Okung. And while that is disappointing, LT matters less for a QB like Rivers than IOL. As for getting it done or not, it's not a simple yes or no since an OL can be middle of the pack as well but continue to show improvement (or regress). Part of it is talent obviously, but the other is scheme and coaching.

If you think Okung isn't a huge hit for this offensive line, we will have to agree to disagree.

[Xenos]

If you think Okung isn't a huge hit for this offensive line, we will have to agree to disagree.

Then you obviously don't know anything about our QB. Tackles are important. But not as important for someone like Rivers who can avoid the rush with his quick release and ability to move up in the pocket. It's the same situation with someone like Brady. Both have the same weakness, which is pressure up the middle. That is what happened towards the end of the season with the Chiefs and Ravens game. If the IOL is not strong enough to create a pocket for Rivers, then the tackles become a problem.

Here's a good breakdown of an LT's diminishing importance in the league now:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2015/09/16/left-tackle-value

Thirty-odd years later, that QB spends 75% of his time in the shotgun, where he almost immediately has a much wider scope of vision; if he's righthanded, he sees the full right side of the field and almost all of the left. There is no "blind side" anymore. Yesterday's seven-step drops are now more like five-step drops, but most QBs don't even hold the ball that long. Quick strikes have become the norm; the best passers often throw in 2.5 seconds or less. Many times, even if a wide-aligned defensive end goes completely untouched by the left tackle, he still can't reach the QB in time.

More than ever, defenses generate pass-rushing pressure through disguised fronts, stunts, twists or blitzes--and most of those focus on isolating and exploiting an O-line's weakest link. A solid left tackle is still valuable, but as a pass protector he's not much more valuable than any of his fellow O-linemen.

[Cdn Bolt]

You're right about not getting an LT in the first two rounds, but you're wrong about TT being in the same mold. We used a first for an RT, a 2nd for guard, a 3rd for a guard/center/future LT, a 5th for a center, and some later round tackles (that's more than AJ ever did in the draft). We also paid a lot in FA for a former pro bowl guard that didn't work out (Franklin), extended a good LT in Dunlap whose career got derailed by injuries, and brought in a pro bowl center. At the end of the day, it's not that TT hadn't tried to fix the OL, it's that despite his investments both through the draft and FA, he hasn't produced a great OL yet. And while this OL can improve, it also was responsible for a top 5 offense last year.

And all of his moves resulted in the #29 rated OL now wout a LT. Just like the crappy OLs they put on the field when he was w IND.

No LT drafted over the last few years when many pundits had it as our top draft need. You can't be confident w Trent Scott at LT even if you give that SI article some credibility.

[beachcomber]

think the "formula" is something like this.... Charger football histrionics include the likes of Hadl/Alworth, Air Coryell, ala Winslow, JJ, Wes Chandler and Joiner, not to mention Dan Fouts, a bit of a cameo by some guy named Drew Brees, and now PR.... we like to throw the football, and.... we've never won a SB.

the year we made it to the final game, we were led by Jr. and Leslie O'Neal.... we also had some pretty decent IDL, and a great run D.

my sense/guess is that TT has brought over some of his Indy/Polian residue, which apparently doesn't value the Oline so much, and.... Tom happens to be a former receiver.

Young Spanos is prolly holding some AJ residue, who if I recall correctly, did little to nothing to save the likes of Stan Humphries or Brees by way of reinforcing their Olines ??

team Tommy John also seems to value lightweight NTs as opposed to a Jamal 2.0 ??

and not only did team Tommy John unfortunately come into the habit of trading away needed draft picks, but they also whiffed more oft than not at the outset of their draft endeavors.

we all hope that Lamp/Feeney turns out better than Tuerk/Chris Watt.... (would also guess that to be a near certainty as think both Forrest and Dan will be just fine in due time).

we can also hope that they don't repeat the DJ in lieu of Star oversight.

there are other considerations.... did we think that Alex Mack was overpriced ?? are Russell and Mike Pouncey worth the injury risk/concerns that were well known beforehand ??

and I know the answer to most of these queries, and yet they are worth rolling out there, as because that's wherein eye think lies the rub....

most all of us would agree that Derwin was clearly the better get than an Isaiah Wynn, but.... would all teams subscribe to that theory, and why did half the league pass on him in the draft ??

would every GM have swooped in on MW in lieu of a Ryan Ramczyk ?? (how 'bout in hindsight ?) and ditto for Travis Benjamin in lieu of the likes of Bobby Massie ??

and you can give team Tommy John a pass cuz most every other team passed on the likes of the above, and.... 'tis part of their job description to have a handle on the proverbial crystal ball.

my personal opinion, is that the Chargers philosophical bent needs to lean more heavily toward the D, and in particular the IDL and our ability to stop the run, and.... to draft Oline as well, and in lieu of the more tempting and perhaps even more talented skill positions.

my suspicion is that team Tommy John's learning curve is indeed trending in the right direction, and that when we move into Hollywood Park the stars will better align w/our SB futures.

ps. Hunter Henry over Jason Spriggs, Jerry Tillery rather than Erick McCoy, Trey Pipkins over Yodny Cajuste ??

[Xenos]

And all of his moves resulted in the #29 rated OL now wout a LT. Just like the crappy OLs they put on the field when he was w IND.

No LT drafted over the last few years when many pundits had it as our top draft need. You can't be confident w Trent Scott at LT even if you give that SI article some credibility.

I already answered your PFF ranking. Don't rely on them too much. Otherwise we should have dramatically improved when we got Orlando Franklin in FA.

[Xenos]

3 Qbs is a luxury not a need but we'll leave that

I don't care how you spin it but all he had to have was a swing tackle backup $2-3M/yr max player. Like what every other team seems to have so the next LT man up isn't some UDFA scrub w no exp.

Don't make fun of UDFA scrubs because Dielman, Jason Peters, and David Andrews prove otherwise.

[richpjr]

I have seen a few articles like the one below, all fairly close in ranking the order of importance by position. Realizing we expected to have Okung at LT, and what TT did this off season actually seems to be pretty reasonable.

Ranking each position's importance, from quarterback to returner

• 
• By Bucky Brooks
• NFL.com Analyst

Football is the ultimate team game, but all positions are not created equal.

Given the pass-happy nature of today's NFL, quarterbacks are clearly the most important players in the game, due to their responsibilities and direct impact on the outcome. What about the other players on the field? How do team builders rank and prioritize the rest of the positions on the roster?

Given some time to reflect on conversations I've had with scouts and coaches over the years, I thought I'd rank the positions in order of importance/value. Here is my hierarchy, with three notable examples at each spot for quick reference:

1) Quarterback

There's no disputing the importance of the position in 2015. The quarterback is not only the team's biggest decision maker, but his ability to make timely plays and efficiently manage the game routinely determines which team lands in the winner's circle at the end of the season.

2) Designated pass rusher 1 (RDE/ROLB)

Given the importance of the quarterback position on the outcome of games, every team must have a defensive playmaker along the front line with the potential to disrupt the timing and rhythm of the passing game. Sacks and quarterback pressures are coveted at a premium, making blind-side pass rushers hot commodities on the open market. Since most signal callers are right-handed, the game's top pass rushers typically align at RDE or ROLB to attack from the back side. J.J. Watt, listed as a notable example just below, is a bit unique, as he moves all over the D-line, but how could I construct a file about positional importance without mentioning the most dominant defensive player in the game today?

3) Left tackle

Keeping the all-important quarterback protected is obviously a top priority. Thus, the second-most crucial offensive position is left tackle, due to the presence of dangerous pass rushers on the QB's blind side. Premier LTs are capable of snuffing out dynamic rushers without assistance, and decision makers are always on the hunt for nimble pass protectors with great skill.

4) Left cornerback

The NFL's growing emphasis on the passing game makes it imperative to have a talented cover corner in the lineup to discourage throws to the prominent side of the field (for a right-handed QB). While some teams elect to have their top corner "travel" -- to match up with the opponent's top receiver -- traditionalists play the percentages and position their top cover man on the side quarterbacks target the most.

5) Wide receiver 1

The rule changes limiting downfield contact with receivers have made WR1s the top playmakers on most offenses. Teams are taking advantage of contemporary officiating by prominently featuring big-bodied and/or speedy receivers in the game plan, to help quarterbacks post ridiculous numbers while moving the offense down the field.

6) Defensive tackle

Despite the emphasis on the passing game, defensive coaches still build strategies around the initial premise of stopping the run. Interior defenders who can destroy running plays between the tackles while also delivering consistent sack production are worth their weight in gold in today's NFL.

7) Running back

Many of the top teams in the NFL still rely on a powerful ground game fueled by a dominant runner. The presence of a standout RB alleviates the pressure on the quarterback and gives the offense the balance needed to win against elite defenses.

8) Designated pass rusher 2 (LDE/LOLB)

Ideally, elite defenses have the capacity to attack the passer from both edges. While the DPR1 typically commands the bulk of attention, a dynamic edge rusher on the strong side can exploit an inferior pass protector at right tackle and speed up the quarterback's internal clock.

9) Middle linebacker

The "Mike" linebacker remains the primary communication position on defense. He takes the call from the sideline and is primarily responsible for making the adjustments along the front line. In addition, the Mike patrols the box from sideline to sideline and racks up a ton of tackles as the fast-flow player on the second level.

10) Tight end

The rules restricting excessive contact and big hits on defenseless receivers have led more teams to feature an athletic, big-bodied tight end in the passing game. These basketball-like athletes are outstanding red-zone weapons, but they primarily do their damage between the hashes on various "post-up" plays. With offensive coordinators intent on making life easier for the quarterback, the presence of a big target in the middle increases the efficiency of the passing game.

11) Free safety

Most defensive coordinators still subscribe to the theory that elite defenses are strong down the middle. Thus, teams are constantly searching for an impact "MOF" (middle of the field) playmaker to discourage throws between the numbers. Ball skills, instincts and solid tackling ability are required for this critical role in the back end.

12) Weak-side linebacker

The 4-3 defense is no longer the predominant scheme of choice in the NFL, but "Will" linebackers remain designated playmakers for teams employing the system. These active LBs are encouraged to shoot through open gaps to hit runners in the backfield, and they're incorporated into the pass rush on creative blitzes. Thus, the best players at the position are explosive, athletic and instinctive.

13) Right tackle

The notion of right tackles playing primarily as run blockers has changed with more teams relying on the passing game. Pass protectors on the right side must be able to move defenders off the ball while also displaying the agility and lateral quickness to shadow electric edge rushers. Although most teams will, at times, use a running back or tight end to help in protection, the position now requires better athletes and pass blockers.

14) Right cornerback

Offensive coordinators routinely throw away from the opponent's top cover corner, leading to more throws to the defensive right. Consequently, defensive coaches are placing better athletes and technicians at right cornerback, to suffocate the passing game.

15) Right guard

The utilization of "slide" protection requires teams to place a solid pass blocker at right guard. This scheme routinely pushes the center to the left to help the left guard, leaving the right guard to face a talented defensive tackle in a one-on-one matchup. In the run game, right guards must be able to move defensive tackles and cut off linebackers on the second level.

16) Wide receiver 2

Despite the increased importance of the WR1 and tight end in most NFL passing games, offensive coordinators still covet a legitimate threat on the back side capable of forcing the defense to defend the entire field. Although most WR2s aren't capable of carrying a passing game over the entire season, the best ones have the capacity to anchor the offense on a short-term basis. Thus, they offer tremendous value for teams built around the play of the quarterback.

17) Center

Some would argue that the center deserves a higher spot on this list, due to his important role as communicator and leader. The center controls most of the adjustments at the line, alleviating some of the pressure on the quarterback to act as the traffic cop. Although offensive coaches place a greater emphasis on instincts and football aptitude, the players at the position with superior athleticism and agility allow creative play designers to utilize crafty schemes at the point of attack.

18) Strong safety

Strong safeties are pegged as run stoppers, but defensive coordinators also expect them to act as enforcers in the middle of the field on passing plays. Big hitters not only discourage receivers from venturing between the hashes, but their presence in the middle forces quarterback to look elsewhere for high-percentage completions. Given their overall impact, strong safeties might be a tad underrated in the team-building process.

19) Strong-side linebacker

The reduced role of the running game has turned "Sam" linebackers into two-down players -- unless they exhibit special qualities on passing downs (blitz/pass-rush ability or cover skills). The premier players at the position are versatile defenders with superb agility and athleticism.

20) Left guard

Every position along the offensive line has a significant impact on the production of the offense, but many coaches will stash their most vulnerable front-line blocker at left guard. The position requires a blocker to possess the strength and power to move defenders off the ball on running plays, but coaches can mask a player's deficiencies at the point of attack by instructing the center to double-team or chip before climbing to the second level. The same tactics can be employed in pass protection, depending on the athleticism and agility of the left guard.

21) Nose tackle

Nose tackles are viewed as run stuffers, but the elite players at the position also possess the skills to collapse the pocket up the middle. Depending on the scheme (3-4 or 4-3) and skills of the player, a nose tackle typically isn't factored into the pass rush. Thus, an NT capable of delivering significant sack production brings more value to a defense.

22) Wide receiver 3

The aerial evolution of the NFL has led most teams to feature a WR3 (or TE2) instead of a fullback in the starting lineup. Although most WR3s will align in the slot, some teams will move one of their top receivers inside to exploit a favorable matchup against a nickel corner. As a result, the job description for a WR3 is team-specific, but many squads count on the sub-pass catcher to come in and make plays when the defense makes a concerted effort to snuff out the WR1.

23) Kicker

Kickers are routinely treated as afterthoughts by casual observers, but coaches certainly appreciate a scorer capable of putting points on the board from long distance. Kickers adept at knocking the ball through the uprights from 50-plus yards expand the scoring zone for the offense, providing the coordinator with more play-calling options.

24) Punter

The field-position battle doesn't show up prominently in the box score, but coaches understand the crucial role punters play in flipping the field. Securing a punter capable of combining hang time and distance is important, but some coaches prefer guys able to consistently knock the ball down inside the 20-yard line on "coffin corner" kicks.

25) Return specialist

The recent rule change on kickoffs has led to more touchbacks and dramatically reduced the role of the kick returner, but special teams coaches still covet a playmaker at the position. Returners capable of pushing the ball out past the 30-yard line not only increase the odds of scoring on offense, but they set the table for winning the field-position battle. Punt returners have more opportunities to impact the game in today's NFL; special teams mavens look for guys with the potential to average 10-plus yards on each touch.

[Cdn Bolt]

I already answered your PFF ranking. Don't rely on them too much. Otherwise we should have dramatically improved when we got Orlando Franklin in FA.

Your opinion. They are a weak group. Only Pouncy got any kind of a grade in Lindy's. Feeney was ranked 12th at G. The rest didn't even make the top 15.

[Xenos]

I have seen a few articles like the one below, all fairly close in ranking the order of importance by position. Realizing we expected to have Okung at LT, and what TT did this off season actually seems to be pretty reasonable.

When was this written? It seems positional rankings change every year. RB is probably at the bottom now. The IOL(guards and center) seem to be just as important as tackles now. Quentin Nelson, for example, was picked 6th overall in 2018.

[Cdn Bolt]

Don't make fun of UDFA scrubs because Dielman, Jason Peters, and David Andrews prove otherwise.

And there are 100's who are just scrubs for every one of them so get real .

[blueman]

You forgot a huuuuuge part of that equation, Russell Okung. Now Tevi is likely at LT and Rivers won't be able to trust his blind side. Huuuuuuge difference, about as big as that bridge you can keep
. :cheers:

Lol, it's my secret weapon.

[Xenos]

Your opinion. They are a weak group. Only Pouncy got any kind of a grade in Lindy's. Feeney was ranked 12th at G. The rest didn't even make the top 15.

And we were ranked differently by another analytic website. So we'll see what happens.