K.J. Hill, WR, Ohio State Discussion

[GoDucks2020]

Don't look at the completion percentage. That isn't as good sign of his accuracy. That is an artifact of his receivers often stopping their routes and being forced to adjust to the ball that was poorly thrown to begin with. His overall percentage looks high because he is not throwing the ball downfield much. Yes, he had a lot of drops, that explains why it is as low as it is (67% for a college offense that doesn't go downfield much is actually low). But if he was a really productive college QB< that percentage should be in the mid 70%'s. Ok, so the drops hurt that, but it is still kinda low.

Look at the ball placement on both the short and the long passes. His actual placement is sometimes incredibly bad. His receivers are turning around. He is not getting the ball out in front of the guy on the screens that much. The timing of the ball in and out of the receiver breaks is all over the place. He doesn't do a very good job of throwing his receivers open.

Almost every QB who is inconsistent can track that fact back to their mechanics. Hebert is just like everyone else. He also has a horrible PFF grade vs pressure. He goes to pieces when pressured. He has zero confidence he can put the ball where he needs it when he needs it to beat the blitz. Yes, college offenses suck against pressure, but he is only bit above average compared to other college QB.

I agree, I think he will excel, but it is not about learning yet another offense. Him learning an NFL Offense is just another reason that they should take his helmet and not let him play unless Tyrod and Stick get hurt.

The primary thing he needs to do is learn to throw the ball like a NFL QB, instead of a "grip and rip" guy. For the most part, you can judge all the QB prospects in the draft this year by watching their feet. Hebert's feet are all over the place. Sometimes they look pretty good, and at times they are all over the place. His downfield passing looks better, because he is less inconsistent with his footwork downfield, but it is still not near good enough for a NFL Franchise to rely on. It needs to get better, plus, he needs to throw the ball all over the field. It takes NFL defenses no more than 4 games to get a good read on an NFL player. They will dissect the film, and any weaknesses he has will be ruthlessly exploited by any NFL D. Can't throw short, he will be throwing into cover4, or press on every play till he throws them out of it. And, if he is still struggling, no team he faces will stop until he does.

Mostly, I think the chargers just need to have him go back and learn the fundamentals of the footwork of dropback passing from under center. It doesn't matter that he won't be using it that much, use it as a training tool. Take the time and do it right. Why rush the most important personnel decision for the next decade (or two). Do it right, we don't just get a starter, we get a dominant franchise QB.

Again, so many of the best NFL QB didn't play their rookie seasons, or even longer. Drew Brees, Mahomes, Rivers, Brady … . Some of that is learning the mechanics. Some of it is building up their bodies to take the pounding. Some of it is just learning a large playbook. We have a decent QB in Tyrod Taylor, who can win some games if players around him play well. But a rookie QB making rookie mistakes simply puts us behind the 8-ball. Tyrod is over 30, so he is not long for the starting job even if he plays out of this world. His game is largely because of his feet, so he is not going to be playing nwhen he is 45, unless it is as a backup. Hebert will get his chance, lets just make sure he is mechanically and schematically prepared when he does.

I've watched Herbert for four years. Every game. Every snap. The last two years he's played in one of the worst schemes I've ever seen for passing the football. The emphasis was on power running with RBs weighing 200#; I'm not kidding. The receivers were mediocre and that's being kind. His best receiver by far was a TE and he blew his knee out in week 6. PFF is a joke. They touted Oregon's OL and it was vastly overrated except for Penei Sewell who's a top 10 draft choice. Sewell aside, the OL was experienced but very, very slow and unathletic. Two of the four seniors were drafted, one in the 5th and the other in the 6th. Both played in the interior and their strength wasn't pass blocking.

As a sophomore, Herbert completed almost 68% of passes while averaging 9.6 yards per attempt. He played in Willie Taggart's Gulf Coast offense, a complete joke of a scheme. That being said, it wasn't a dink and dunk offense. Herbert stretched the field every single game.

Four QBs completed over 70% of their passes last year, Jalen Hurts and Joe Burrow were two of the four. Hurts is not an accurate passer or a natural QB. Credit Lincoln Riley at OU and his scheme for maxing out Hurts. Joe Burrow was a 57% passer as a junior and probably a late round pick had he declared. He didn't lack for weapons nor did his receivers drop 52 passes like Herbert's. In comes Joe Brady from New Orleans and he completely revamps LSU's passing game. Burrow's stats skyrocket. Bottom line it's hard to win Daytona driving a Ford Pinto and that's what Herbert was driving for two years. His sophomore year he was driving a Toyota Tercel, a slight upgrade.

Herbert does need to work on his footwork under pressure but that's correctable. He's never played under center and impressed the coaches at the Senior Bowl on how fast he picked it up after working with QB coach John Beck for a couple of months, the first time he's every had a real QB coach. This kid is a natural. I don't know if he should play this year but he will go down the learning curve quickly IMO. If the OL sucks it might be wise to let Tyrod to take the beating. A lot of the critics have an to axe grind. They've questioned Herbert's leadership which was completely off base. His teammates love him. He didn't have to come back his senior year. He was likely a top 10 pick as a junior. Turning down that kind of $$$ speaks volumes.

[Lone Bolt]

Don't look at the completion percentage. That isn't as good sign of his accuracy. That is an artifact of his receivers often stopping their routes and being forced to adjust to the ball that was poorly thrown to begin with. His overall percentage looks high because he is not throwing the ball downfield much. Yes, he had a lot of drops, that explains why it is as low as it is (67% for a college offense that doesn't go downfield much is actually low). But if he was a really productive college QB< that percentage should be in the mid 70%'s. Ok, so the drops hurt that, but it is still kinda low.

Look at the ball placement on both the short and the long passes. His actual placement is sometimes incredibly bad. His receivers are turning around. He is not getting the ball out in front of the guy on the screens that much. The timing of the ball in and out of the receiver breaks is all over the place. He doesn't do a very good job of throwing his receivers open.

Almost every QB who is inconsistent can track that fact back to their mechanics. Hebert is just like everyone else. He also has a horrible PFF grade vs pressure. He goes to pieces when pressured. He has zero confidence he can put the ball where he needs it when he needs it to beat the blitz. Yes, college offenses suck against pressure, but he is only bit above average compared to other college QB.

I agree, I think he will excel, but it is not about learning yet another offense. Him learning an NFL Offense is just another reason that they should take his helmet and not let him play unless Tyrod and Stick get hurt.

The primary thing he needs to do is learn to throw the ball like a NFL QB, instead of a "grip and rip" guy. For the most part, you can judge all the QB prospects in the draft this year by watching their feet. Hebert's feet are all over the place. Sometimes they look pretty good, and at times they are all over the place. His downfield passing looks better, because he is less inconsistent with his footwork downfield, but it is still not near good enough for a NFL Franchise to rely on. It needs to get better, plus, he needs to throw the ball all over the field. It takes NFL defenses no more than 4 games to get a good read on an NFL player. They will dissect the film, and any weaknesses he has will be ruthlessly exploited by any NFL D. Can't throw short, he will be throwing into cover4, or press on every play till he throws them out of it. And, if he is still struggling, no team he faces will stop until he does.

Mostly, I think the chargers just need to have him go back and learn the fundamentals of the footwork of dropback passing from under center. It doesn't matter that he won't be using it that much, use it as a training tool. Take the time and do it right. Why rush the most important personnel decision for the next decade (or two). Do it right, we don't just get a starter, we get a dominant franchise QB.

Again, so many of the best NFL QB didn't play their rookie seasons, or even longer. Drew Brees, Mahomes, Rivers, Brady … . Some of that is learning the mechanics. Some of it is building up their bodies to take the pounding. Some of it is just learning a large playbook. We have a decent QB in Tyrod Taylor, who can win some games if players around him play well. But a rookie QB making rookie mistakes simply puts us behind the 8-ball. Tyrod is over 30, so he is not long for the starting job even if he plays out of this world. His game is largely because of his feet, so he is not going to be playing nwhen he is 45, unless it is as a backup. Hebert will get his chance, lets just make sure he is mechanically and schematically prepared when he does.

FWIW, it sounds like from interviews that he attended the Manning academy, and has been working to correct some of his problems with his mechanics during this predraft process...must have been in February? Anyway, something about his shoulder getting loose, and he needed to cross the X with his hips and upper body? I don't know exactly, but it sounds like he has been working on it, and he did look good at the combine...

[sufan144]

This guy could be a steal Wes Welker wasn't fast 4.65 40 time you never know he could be the perfect slot receiver go Chargers.

[Boltjolt]

FWIW, it sounds like from interviews that he attended the Manning academy, and has been working to correct some of his problems with his mechanics during this predraft process...must have been in February? Anyway, something about his shoulder getting loose, and he needed to cross the X with his hips and upper body? I don't know exactly, but it sounds like he has been working on it, and he did look good at the combine...

Thats the sig Ninja came up with for you? Could of been worse lol.

[Velo]

This guy could be a steal Wes Welker wasn't fast 4.65 40 time you never know he could be the perfect slot receiver go Chargers.

It seems he might also be of the Keenan McCardell mold. KM was 6' 175 coming out of UNLV. His Combine 40 time was 4.56. Keenan had a long and successful career not because of his size or speed, but because of his route running, innate ability to create separation, great hands and iron determination. It feels like KJ has these traits too.

[richpjr]

FWIW, it sounds like from interviews that he attended the Manning academy, and has been working to correct some of his problems with his mechanics during this predraft process...must have been in February? Anyway, something about his shoulder getting loose, and he needed to cross the X with his hips and upper body? I don't know exactly, but it sounds like he has been working on it, and he did look good at the combine...

He has been working with 3DQB on his footwork and mechanics and from what I have read they are already showing a lot of improvement.

[Lone Bolt]

Thats the sig Ninja came up with for you? Could of been worse lol.

No....stayed tuned...it was more an invitation to contact me and let me know....

[Topcat]

I've watched Herbert for four years. Every game. Every snap. The last two years he's played in one of the worst schemes I've ever seen for passing the football. The emphasis was on power running with RBs weighing 200#; I'm not kidding. The receivers were mediocre and that's being kind. His best receiver by far was a TE and he blew his knee out in week 6. PFF is a joke. They touted Oregon's OL and it was vastly overrated except for Penei Sewell who's a top 10 draft choice. Sewell aside, the OL was experienced but very, very slow and unathletic. Two of the four seniors were drafted, one in the 5th and the other in the 6th. Both played in the interior and their strength wasn't pass blocking.

As a sophomore, Herbert completed almost 68% of passes while averaging 9.6 yards per attempt. He played in Willie Taggart's Gulf Coast offense, a complete joke of a scheme. That being said, it wasn't a dink and dunk offense. Herbert stretched the field every single game.

Four QBs completed over 70% of their passes last year, Jalen Hurts and Joe Burrow were two of the four. Hurts is not an accurate passer or a natural QB. Credit Lincoln Riley at OU and his scheme for maxing out Hurts. Joe Burrow was a 57% passer as a junior and probably a late round pick had he declared. He didn't lack for weapons nor did his receivers drop 52 passes like Herbert's. In comes Joe Brady from New Orleans and he completely revamps LSU's passing game. Burrow's stats skyrocket. Bottom line it's hard to win Daytona driving a Ford Pinto and that's what Herbert was driving for two years. His sophomore year he was driving a Toyota Tercel, a slight upgrade.

Herbert does need to work on his footwork under pressure but that's correctable. He's never played under center and impressed the coaches at the Senior Bowl on how fast he picked it up after working with QB coach John Beck for a couple of months, the first time he's every had a real QB coach. This kid is a natural. I don't know if he should play this year but he will go down the learning curve quickly IMO. If the OL sucks it might be wise to let Tyrod to take the beating. A lot of the critics have an axe grind. They've questioned Herbert's leadership which was completely off base. His teammates love him. He didn't have to come back his senior year. He was likely a top 10 pick as a junior. Turning down that kind of $$$ speaks volumes.

Appreciate that info, Duck. This helps a lot.

[blueman]

Appreciate that info, Duck. This helps a lot.

Definitely, thank you.

[Fleet]

Ive loved this kid for a while now? 3rd round talent in the 7th. lol. Ill take it. All this guy does is get open and catch passes. You know how you do that without a lot of speed? Football IQ and technique. Allen will only teach him to be better.

[Caslon]

Excuse me. Is this the freaking Herbert topic or the welcome new WR Hill? Freakoids. Give this place enough rope and we'll tangent out in no time.
My say? Replace undrafted free agent Patton with Hill, pronto. Like after the first preseason game. Heh. See ya FA undrafted practice squad WR Patton.
First mock cut down after week one preseason. Andre Patton. Sorry kid, we hardly knew you. Yes we did. He made some bonehead moves. Like getting a penalty called on him where the play was across the field from him. That doesn't exactly put you in good stead with coaches.

[gzubeck]

Excuse me. Is this the freaking Herbert topic or the welcome new WR Hill? Freakoids. Give this place enough rope and we'll tangent out in no time.
My say? Replace undrafted free agent Patton with Hill, pronto. Like after the first preseason game. Heh. See ya Patton.

He's probably caught so many passes in collegiate play that he sleeps with his arms outstretched at night! Just when you think you get a steal of a pick with KA in the third we dig this kid up in the 7th. Call me crazy but I also think this schoen UDFA might be an additional sleeper that makes the team or practice squad.