2020 Chargers Re-draft

[powderblueboy]

Again, your take that because Telesco went with his ranking system, that somehow validates his choices is absurd. Telesco has had some draft hits, but also some draft misses like every other GM.

The consensus that stands against him suggests that he is wrong in the absence of other evidence until he is proven so by the actual player results. That is likely not so much of an if as it is a when in this case.

I mean, he could have drafted K.J. Hill in the first round with Simmons on the board and it would be the same point, just a little more obvious. But, of course, you would be saying, "Well, he went with his board and Hill was the right team fit because that is how he valued it and Telesco has a scouting department and media analysts are just entertainers."

As for my "duly noted" complaint, the whole point of the discussion and thread is that many of us think that Telesco left a lot of meat on the NFL draft bone in this year's draft. That thinking might have something to do with the fact that he did.

No, my take is the exact opposite: that Telesco's (or any GM's) choices are not necessarily invalid because they fail to conform to the typical media analysts 'big board'. Your idea about what constitutes a 'consensus' on draft choices is misplaced, since it does not involve the rankings of NFL GMs in concert with their scouting departments. The typical media analyst has far less information on any draftable player than NFL insiders within organizations;
their opinions are far less reliable on who deserves a first round grade.

[chris9341]

Your original statement that I quoted can be read as suggesting that taking Simmons somehow lends itself to tanking whereas taking Herbert would not. My point was that, if anything, I would reverse that. The team is a virtual lock to be worse in 2020 by taking Herbert and not Simmons.

Also, if we have the #1 pick in next year's draft, we should, of course, take Lawrence notwithstanding the fact that we took Herbert in this year's draft.

As I said if you're gonna quote me on something I said then quote me on everything I said and not just one sentence. And why do you keep insisting that we will be worse of with Herbert in 2020 when he's not even going to be the starter? He's gonna sit behind Tyrod Taylor and learn. One of the main things he has to learn is how to take snaps under center. And for arguments sake lets do say we have the first pick in next years draft your gonna take Lawrence when you know that you already have your franchise QB and you need an Left tackle Penei Sewell probably one of the best left tackles to come out in a long time and you want us to take Lawrence? As I said already you would make a horrible GM.

[chris9341]

I wouldn't have traded into the 1st round, with the 2nd and 3rd, so....here's my hindsight 20/20 draft.
1. Isaiah Simmons, LB Clemson
2. Yetur Gross-Matos, Edge PSU - don't see being able to re-sign both Bosa and Ingram, so get a high rated prospect poised to replace whomever leaves via FA.
3. Josh Jones, OT Houston
4. Jacob Eason, QB Washington - Just don't see Herbert playing in 20-21, unless due to injury or throwing in the towel at year's end. They are going to see what Tyrod will do this year so they can decide if he stays or goes after the season. Lots of QBs hiting FA market after next year.
5. Bryce Hall, CB Virginia
6. Eno Benjamin, RB Ariz St.
7. Benito Jones, DT Mississippi

Actually they only traded a third rounder to move up. Our second rounder and there first rounder are pretty much just an even swap.

[Guest]

As I said if you're gonna quote me on something I said then quote me on everything I said and not just one sentence. And why do you keep insisting that we will be worse of with Herbert in 2020whenhe's not even going to be the starter?He's gonna sit behind Tyrod Taylor and learn. One of the main things he has to learn is how to take snaps under center. And for arguments sake lets do say we have the first pick in next years draft your gonna take Lawrence when you know that you already have your franchise QB and you need an Left tackle Penei Sewell probably one of the best left tackles to come out in a long time and you want us to take Lawrence? As I said already you would make a horrible GM.

.

In my scenario, the 2020 team is improved by starting/giving lots of reps to Isaiah Simmons, Jonathan Taylor and Josh Jones. That is better than the 2020 scenario with Herbert in which the team is starting Murray, who is not even as good as Simmons, much less all three players. In both scenarios, the team is starting Tyrod Taylor, so Herbert is not making the team better. The team is better in my scenario and worse in the one with Herbert. I think that is very, very clear.

Regarding next year's draft, Lawrence is the clearest #1 overall pick since at least Elway in 1983. Herbert is a potential franchise QB. Lawrence is a once in a generation QB. Any GM in the league that passes on Lawrence at #1 in next year's draft should be fired immediately. But no actual GM will pass on Lawrence, so there is nothing to worry about for the GMs.

And I am certainly not compounding the mistakes of this year's draft of overdrafting Herbert and trading up for Murray by passing on Lawrence. With Lawrence in hand, Herbert could be traded for good draft capital. Even if Herbert could not be traded, I would still take Lawrence as once in a generation QBs are, as the description suggests, very rare. There are two categories in next year's draft, Lawrence and everyone else.

[Guest]

No, my take is the exact opposite: that Telesco's (or any GM's) choices are not necessarily invalid because they fail to conform to the typical media analysts 'big board'. Your idea about what constitutes a 'consensus' on draft choices is misplaced, since it does not involve the rankings of NFL GMs in concert with their scouting departments. The typical media analyst has far less information on any draftable player than NFL insiders within organizations;
their opinions are far less reliable on who deserves a first round grade.

I agree that Telesco's choices are not necessarily invalid as nothing is proven...yet. In this discussion, we are talking about the likely results, not what has been proven because nothing could have proven yet. The proof is coming.

I also agree that NFL scouting departments have more information, but that is usually an advantage in disqualifying information such as medical or off the field information, not in on field game footage or NFL Combine footage. I would be the first to admit that with an apparently healthy player with no obvious evidence of injury risk or off field issues, my takes generally do not consider those issues, so if there is something deep in the closet or not generally known, then I would not have considered that.

And yes, sometimes one GM is right and everyone else is wrong, but more often it is the case that the one lone wolf GM is wrong and players like Larry English and Trey Pipkins do not live up to their perceived overdrafted slot that seemingly everyone except the team's scouting department could see as soon as the player was taken.

And even further, sometimes a faller happens due to draft board dynamics with nobody being right or wrong. A team could have had Jones in their top 32, but had two other prospects higher when they went to pick with their first two choices. Or maybe, like Arizona, they did not have a second round pick. I certainly cannot fault Arizona for taking Simmons, a unanimous top 5 prospect, over Jones.

I had Simmons as the #2 overall prospect, so if I am Arizona, I could have had Jones as high as #3 overall and still drafted him just as they did at #72.

[dmac_bolt]

Interesting perspectives. I’m a simple guy - A Belicheat might paraphrase: your draft value is what the draft said your value is. I don’t know all the other media evaluators well enough to rate them, but as Mel consistently is the most prominent mainstream “expert”, I’ve watched his record for a really long time. Mel Kiper is a horrible talent scout, his picks suck so often he should have been banned from media a decade ago. TT is not perfect and is absolutely open to question. I worry more about how he took than who he didnt - if he gets starting quality player, the team gets better. my amateur thoughts

- Love Herbert. He was my preference over Tua. He’s got starting QB stud potential, Tua will break within 2 years. Apologies to the Simmons crowd but a quality starting QB is worth more than 3 picks. QBs win and lose games, period. His progress just from Oregon to the Senior bowl and combine shows that if he gets competent QB coaching, he has the intelligence and work ethic to fix his mechanics issues. Unlike some opinions - i firmly believe you can’t teach a cannon and he’s got one. You also can’t teach speed and he’s got that, but unlike the usual speedy QB he’s a big studly athlete.

- Love Murray, and am fine with the trade up. Yes we lost a 3rd but we gained a legit beast ILB who will be stronger against the run than Simmons will be (my prediction). He can’t cover WRs like Simmons so Gus will, I dunno, cover WRs with DBs instead? I’m not a fan of jack of all trade players, NFL is specialized and if you get pieces for the positions - you don’t need a player to be able to play EVERY position. He can cover TEs but will need some improvement in coverage. But he’s the sideline-to-sideline enforcer ILB we have not had since Seau (not saying he is Jr, who went #5 if I recall, but he will be the best LB we have had SINCE Seau). Great guy as well.

- Love Kelly - but not sure I like a RB at Rd4 but he will be their starting 1s/2nd down RB. Great one plant and go upfield instinct, strong between the tackle runner we did not have anywhere on the roster.

- Reed - not sure. This is probably the biggest letdown in the draft, did we really get a great WR in a draft with so many? He’ll contribute early on STs returning - tbd.

- Gilman - beats me. I didn’t see Safety as a critical need, don’t know he had BPA type importance.

- Hill - could be the first 7th rd pick to contribute in i don’t know how long. Slot potential but not that total field menace that were aplenty in the draft. Mixed feelings, should make the team and make it better with limited opportunities.

i like the draft. Still concerned about OT but as some note, a sub-500 team usually can’t fix everything in one draft. TT fixed the right side, fingers crossed, which is a start. We’ll see if he adds another tackle for insurance - going into 2020 this is definitely the biggest risk

I’m down with the draft. Nobody cares. Thats cool, I’m nobody.

[WindsorUK]

What happens if we bottom out this year?
Sitting at number 1, with Lawrence as the obvious choice, do we draft him?

[chris9341]

What happens if we bottom out this year?
Sitting at number 1, with Lawrence as the obvious choice, do we draft him?

un popular opinion. No you do not draft him. You trade down a few spots and get Penei Sewell the best Left tackle to come out in a long time. I guarantee we can get a 2nd rounder this year from the team we are trading down for most likely the 3rd spot in the draft and also get there next years first pick.

[Boltjolt]

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In my scenario, the 2020 team is improved by starting/giving lots of reps to Isaiah Simmons, Jonathan Taylor and Josh Jones. That is better than the 2020 scenario with Herbert in which the team is starting Murray, who is not even as good as Simmons, much less all three players. In both scenarios, the team is starting Tyrod Taylor, so Herbert is not making the team better. The team is better in my scenario and worse in the one with Herbert. I think that is very, very clear.

Regarding next year's draft, Lawrence is the clearest #1 overall pick since at least Elway in 1983. Herbert is a potential franchise QB. Lawrence is a once in a generation QB. Any GM in the league that passes on Lawrence at #1 in next year's draft should be fired immediately. But no actual GM will pass on Lawrence, so there is nothing to worry about for the GMs.

And I am certainly not compounding the mistakes of this year's draft of overdrafting Herbert and trading up for Murray by passing on Lawrence. With Lawrence in hand, Herbert could be traded for good draft capital. Even if Herbert could not be traded, I would still take Lawrence as once in a generation QBs are, as the description suggests, very rare. There are two categories in next year's draft, Lawrence and everyone else.

Who really cares. We got who we got and lets see what these guys can do. Murray is no slouch but we did lose a 3rd to get him. No use in crying over spilled milk, whats done is done! You arent gong to whine all yer about this are you?

[Guest]

Who really cares. We got who we got and lets see what these guys can do. Murray is no slouch but we did lose a 3rd to get him. No use in crying over spilled milk, whats done is done! You arent gong to whine all yer about this are you?

I will be rooting for our guys and hoping they end up being better than the other guys that I thought were better. That's for sure. I hope I get to be wrong, but I am concerned that I may be right.

To respond to your inquiry, as for my now somewhat extensive discussion in this thread, I think it fits the subject matter of this thread, but I do not see it being some sort of year long theme that gets thrown into the discussion of unrelated threads.

[Guest]

What happens if we bottom out this year?
Sitting at number 1, with Lawrence as the obvious choice, do we draft him?

Yes, because he is the best player and he also represents the biggest upgrade at any position for our team. And, for those who think QBs carry more value, he happens to be one of those too.

Then, you trade Herbert and get your left tackle. Then, ultimately, we would get to have the best QB in both the division and the league. That might be okay.

[like54ninjas]

I will be rooting for our guys and hoping they end up being better than the other guys that I thought were better. That's for sure. I hope I get to be wrong, but I am concerned that I may be right.

To respond to your inquiry, as for my now somewhat extensive discussion in this thread, I think it fits the subject matter of this thread, but I do not see it being some sort of year long theme that gets thrown into the discussion of unrelated threads.

I think most of feel the same way in regards to certain drafts as a whole, individual prospects, or thoughts on team fit, etc.
IMV, Tillery was a late 3rd round talent and barely heard of Trey Pipkins but as you I want them to excel and prove me horribly wrong.
TPB comes before the player or my at times overinflated ego.