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  • #37
    oops, I am trying to edit

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    • #38
      I think the way we look at it is thus...who cares how they rank but who do you think might be available for the chargers as QB. If Herbert is off the board at # 6 then we have to look at drafting either Hurts or Fromm in the second round. Eason has a cannon for an arm but he's not accurate from what I've seen. If Herbert, Hurts, and Fromm are off the board when we have a chance to pick I would just pass on the the rest of the QB's and look for a veteran.
      My choice for #13 in this years draft....

      1) Two top CB's Farley or Surtain
      2) Te Te if the two above are not available
      3) Trade down if all three are not available and we have a motivated trade partner and then draft your oline.

      Otherwise I have visions of Fluker in my mind?!?!?!?1

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      • #39
        Originally posted by C'monchargers View Post
        Personally I always found the argument of Jalen Hurts "Will Run after first read" a bit harsh and with very little leverage against his recent work.

        First off, you don't amass - 3,851 yards which rank 9th in the nation, 32 TD which rank 11th in a 4 way tie with TUA, HERBERT and Sam Ehlinger - when you will take off if your first progression is covered.

        Second, Kyler Murray's last year in Oklahoma threw for 4,361 yards and rushed for 1001 yards. If Kyler has a full year of experience in the system and still rush over 1000 yards, naturally one would assume this Kyler Murray's oklahoma offensive scheme will involve the QB running. Jalen Hurts basically went there to run the exact offense and did it pretty well consider the amount of experience he had or the lack of, in the offense. On top of that his footwork is better. He pivot and align decently with his target on his check down compare to anything he had done prior and he looks stronger, functionally stronger.

        https://www.foxsports.com/college-fo...og?season=2017

        This is game logs for Kyler Murray's first year in Oklahoma, he play sparingly but his pass to run ratio is 3/2, that is almost the same ratio as Jalen Hurts at 1.45~ pass to rush ratio. At this point (Similar in Blocking but not identical to the scheme Baker was in), this system have a large amount of play that involve the QB running if he sees fit. There is a disdain difference between, "A QB choose to run first in a fight or flight" and "A QB is told to run if the option is open".

        Also, this is Jalen's first year playing at Oklahoma, whose to say he won't make similar improvement as Kyler did if he has a second year.

        He really only had run more than he threw in 1 game, which is against that TCU zone that just wrecked the Oklahoma passing game.

        https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/40

        TCU is top 7 in holding to opp to 360 passes only on the year, 11th in int with 22, top 8 against passing in yardage. But yet allowed 22 TDs.
        So if you look at Jalen Hurts' Stat in that game, it basically was a well call game to take what was given by the defense. You know its going to be tough to pass against them so they run, and did it well 28 attempts, 173 yards and 2TD with a 6.2 yards avg. Even with a season low 52% completion rate in that game,he still manage to throw 2 TD only 1 int and took the W home.

        I am having a hard time finding the game tape and i rather not just post the link to a highlight to eval. So no tape eval for this game from me.

        PS: One thing Jalen Hurts said a few weeks back caught my ears. He said nothing in Alabama help him to succeed as a QB..... Here is a list of Nick Saban's QB and he was there since 2007

        https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb...a/passing.html

        Yeah I would have to say Nick Saban is more often than not on the miss side as a QB developer. Mind you these are not low class recruit coming out of high school neither. Even in the case of Tua which he is playing well and he showed off his talent; but you have seen very little improvement from year to year. All he did was win, not improve.
        I got be honest with you, I’m born and raised in Oklahoma. So naturally I’m a die hard OU fan. What I tell you is the cold truth and that’s that Jalen is exactly what is haters say he is. In the back half of the season he completely handicapped the offense. Jalen is not a natural QB at all. Not that stats even matter in the 1st place, but most his explosive plays come OU WR core being so explosive. Once teams realized he can’t read defenses the offense stopped being its normal self. He really is one read and run. Great guy tho. Should change positions and succeed.

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        • #40
          Guys hurts struggles big time with reads. Went too several games this year and have watched every game for many years now. There was WR running wide open that he usually just flat out didn’t see. His time to throw was the most in the entire FBS there’s no excuse not to see Open WR. Especially in coach Riley’s system. This was the deepest skill group OU has ever had and they were pretty much rendered pointless because of hurts. It goes beyond passing as well he struggles with knowing when to pull the ball or not. Also he has fumble issues. His athletic abilities are his defining trait.
          I know the media would make you think he was the apple of OU’s eye, but the majority of OU fan base including former OU players disliked hurts as a player. To the point where they were wanting to give one of the other QB’s a shot and bench Hurts. It was frustrating to watch after having almost a whole decade of good QB play. He single handily almost lost several games. Again tho he has great work ethic and if he switches positions I could see him having a successful career.

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          • #41
            I’m seeing a lot of stats, but stats honestly don’t mean much, they just show the end result. Especially for QB’s. The details are what’s most important. 2 plays that both result in a TD can be completely different. A QB throws a beautiful downfield pass after going through his reads is completely different then a QB that just dumps it off down low or throws a screen that the WR then takes all the way. But both would look the same if you are just looking at the stat line. The biggest issues with stats and a lot of data used is they don’t tell the story at all.

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            • #42
              Originally posted by DerekReed98 View Post

              I got be honest with you, I’m born and raised in Oklahoma. So naturally I’m a die hard OU fan. What I tell you is the cold truth and that’s that Jalen is exactly what is haters say he is. In the back half of the season he completely handicapped the offense. Jalen is not a natural QB at all. Not that stats even matter in the 1st place, but most his explosive plays come OU WR core being so explosive. Once teams realized he can’t read defenses the offense stopped being its normal self. He really is one read and run. Great guy tho. Should change positions and succeed.
              You are going to have to back that up. With tapes, facts, or stats whatever.

              First off, statistics merely tells you what happen, when did it happen; it's up to whoever it is to use it to figure out, how it happen and why. So to a certain extend, you are right; if the info get into a certain hand it would be useless. If you don't put much thought into connecting the dots, its just dots. But if it gets into some other hands, it can be very useful.

              You mention you are from Oklahoma and had been a life long fan, So you must be forgetful in saying this year "They had the best skill position ever" when only 3 long years ago, they had Mark Andrews, Marquise Brown and Ceedee Lamb on the roster. Second you said this year "he has the most time to throw in college football", how? Their best rank olineman was ranked 76th in Adrian Ealy - rating at 73.4 in all situations. They are 46th in pass-blocking and their highest ranking positional player ranked just 42nd in pass protection. Creed Hunphrey regress big time from 2018. On top of that,Swenson and Ealy both dealt with injury, Ealy was hurt before the game against Texas. In 2017 They had one of the best oline in football with Orlando Brown being a top 5 olineman in NCAA.

              For somebody who said stats means nothing, you sure throw out some stats (most time to throw, best skill positions.....)

              You said you are a bottom line person, bottom line is he had lost 2 games only as a sooner. Once against Kansas st. which has a even stronger secondary than TCU, and against LSU. So Bottom line he wins.

              Which game late in the season he almost lost, like the one against Baylor?? First off, sooners fan,, you should be grateful he beat, Baylor not once but twice for you guys.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n5rcbWCgAU&t=949s

              This is tape of the 1st Baylor game, which they win with a field goal.

              They are dominated at the line of scrimmage on the offensive front early on and often. They can't contain nobody, I hardly call this kind of protection best in the nation. He brought team back from 28-3 to win the game. Granted the defense had held Baylor scoreless in the second half but offense need to score to win right, especially when you are behind 25 points.

              I am not going to argue against myself, that;s on you. I am going ahead and tell you what imo he does well.

              7:25 - redzone, shot gun formation. Take the snap, check down and read through he progression which is from left to right and find the TE for a TD. Like I said before his 2nd tier target has very high reception to TD ratio and you can see why. They aren't as talented or as polished, so you aren't beating peeps in the distance or with great route running, but you can out quick defense and catch. It is a systemic thing, it's by design to rely on go to in normal passing situation and spread on redzone and close distance situation. In addition, you don't throw a TD to a 3rd, 4th option guy without reading the first 3. Right?? It make sense.

              Also, look at how he checks down. Not rush, just going to through it and zip it in the window away from coverage. That is a sustainable play that can be replicate.

              10:40 - again, redzone. I don't want to type too much so I will just pick a few plays. He does his pre game snap read, which is one characteristics of a read option offense compare to how to read from under the center. Anyhow he motions the WR across. Ball snap, wr pull the CB away from the TE and he goes throw his read, WR cover, 2nd read TE open; throw across his body, TD. Again, going through his motion and stay calm and collective from his pre snap count to spread out the defense to looking off the CB and come back to his original target, which he try to free up right from the get go. That's another sustainable play call that can be repeated.

              There is one thing that i would agree with you, he does have a fumbling issue and that's need to be adjusted. He almost did not complete the come back. I wouldn't necessarily call it "He almost lost it" because he got to bring them back to almost lose it again in the first place.
              Last edited by C'monchargers; 03-01-2020, 12:56 PM.

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              • #43
                Originally posted by C'monchargers View Post

                You are going to have to back that up. With tapes, facts, or stats whatever.

                First off, statistics merely tells you what happen, when did it happen; it's up to whoever it is to use it to figure out, how it happen and why. So to a certain extend, you are right; if the info get into a certain hand it would be useless. If you don't put much thought into connecting the dots, its just dots. But if it gets into some other hands, it can be very useful.

                You mention you are from Oklahoma and had been a life long fan, So you must be forgetful in saying this year "They had the best skill position ever" when only 3 long years ago, they had Mark Andrews, Marquise Brown and Ceedee Lamb on the roster. Second you said this year "he has the most time to throw in college football", how? Their best rank olineman was ranked 76th in Adrian Ealy - rating at 73.4 in all situations. They are 46th in pass-blocking and their highest ranking positional player ranked just 42nd in pass protection. Creed Hunphrey regress big time from 2018. On top of that,Swenson and Ealy both dealt with injury, Ealy was hurt before the game against Texas. In 2017 They had one of the best oline in football with Orlando Brown being a top 5 olineman in NCAA.

                For somebody who said stats means nothing, you sure throw out some stats (most time to throw, best skill positions.....)

                You said you are a bottom line person, bottom line is he had lost 2 games only as a sooner. Once against Kansas st. which has a even stronger secondary than TCU, and against LSU. So Bottom line he wins.

                Which game late in the season he almost lost, like the one against Baylor?? First off, sooners fan,, you should be grateful he beat, Baylor not once but twice for you guys.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n5rcbWCgAU&t=949s

                This is tape of the 1st Baylor game, which they win with a field goal.

                They are dominated at the line of scrimmage on the offensive front early on and often. They can't contain nobody, I hardly call this kind of protection best in the nation. He brought team back from 28-3 to win the game. Granted the defense had held Baylor scoreless in the second half but offense need to score to win right, especially when you are behind 25 points.

                I am not going to argue against myself, that;s on you. I am going ahead and tell you what imo he does well.

                7:25 - redzone, shot gun formation. Take the snap, check down and read through he progression which is from left to right and find the TE for a TD. Like I said before his 2nd tier target has very high reception to TD ratio and you can see why. They aren't as talented so you are beating peeps in the distance, but you can out quick defense and catch. It is a systemic thing, it's by design to rely on go to in normal passing situation and spread on redzone and close distance situation. In addition, you don't throw a TD to a 3rd, 4th option guy without reading the first 3. Right?? It make sense.

                Also, look at how he checks down. Not rush, just going to through it and zip it in the window away from coverage. That is a sustainable play that can be replicate.

                10:40 - again, redzone. I don't want to type too much so I will just pick a few plays. He does has pre game snap read. Motion the WR across. Ball snap, wr pull the CB away from the TE and he goes throw his read, WR cover, 2nd read TE open; throw across his body, TD. Again, going through his motion and stay calm and collective from his pre snap count to spread out the defense to looking off the CB and come back to his original target, which he try to free up right from the get go. That's another sustainable play call that can be repeated.

                There is one thing that i would agree with you, he does have a fumbling issue and that's need to be adjusted. He almost did not complete the come back. I wouldn't necessarily call it "He almost lost it" because he got to bring them back to almost lose it again in the first place.
                Yeah this skill group is definitely deeper then the one they had 3 years ago at every position. I’ll go into detail later as I’m at work right now and there’s a whole bunch of stuff to debunk from what you just said

                Comment


                • #44
                  Originally posted by DerekReed98 View Post
                  Yeah this skill group is definitely deeper then the one they had 3 years ago at every position. I’ll go into detail later as I’m at work right now and there’s a whole bunch of stuff to debunk from what you just said
                  Whoa

                  Comment


                  • #45
                    Originally posted by C'monchargers View Post

                    You are going to have to back that up. With tapes, facts, or stats whatever.

                    First off, statistics merely tells you what happen, when did it happen; it's up to whoever it is to use it to figure out, how it happen and why. So to a certain extend, you are right; if the info get into a certain hand it would be useless. If you don't put much thought into connecting the dots, its just dots. But if it gets into some other hands, it can be very useful.

                    You mention you are from Oklahoma and had been a life long fan, So you must be forgetful in saying this year "They had the best skill position ever" when only 3 long years ago, they had Mark Andrews, Marquise Brown and Ceedee Lamb on the roster. Second you said this year "he has the most time to throw in college football", how? Their best rank olineman was ranked 76th in Adrian Ealy - rating at 73.4 in all situations. They are 46th in pass-blocking and their highest ranking positional player ranked just 42nd in pass protection. Creed Hunphrey regress big time from 2018. On top of that,Swenson and Ealy both dealt with injury, Ealy was hurt before the game against Texas. In 2017 They had one of the best oline in football with Orlando Brown being a top 5 olineman in NCAA.

                    For somebody who said stats means nothing, you sure throw out some stats (most time to throw, best skill positions.....)

                    You said you are a bottom line person, bottom line is he had lost 2 games only as a sooner. Once against Kansas st. which has a even stronger secondary than TCU, and against LSU. So Bottom line he wins.

                    Which game late in the season he almost lost, like the one against Baylor?? First off, sooners fan,, you should be grateful he beat, Baylor not once but twice for you guys.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n5rcbWCgAU&t=949s

                    This is tape of the 1st Baylor game, which they win with a field goal.

                    They are dominated at the line of scrimmage on the offensive front early on and often. They can't contain nobody, I hardly call this kind of protection best in the nation. He brought team back from 28-3 to win the game. Granted the defense had held Baylor scoreless in the second half but offense need to score to win right, especially when you are behind 25 points.

                    I am not going to argue against myself, that;s on you. I am going ahead and tell you what imo he does well.

                    7:25 - redzone, shot gun formation. Take the snap, check down and read through he progression which is from left to right and find the TE for a TD. Like I said before his 2nd tier target has very high reception to TD ratio and you can see why. They aren't as talented or as polished, so you aren't beating peeps in the distance or with great route running, but you can out quick defense and catch. It is a systemic thing, it's by design to rely on go to in normal passing situation and spread on redzone and close distance situation. In addition, you don't throw a TD to a 3rd, 4th option guy without reading the first 3. Right?? It make sense.

                    Also, look at how he checks down. Not rush, just going to through it and zip it in the window away from coverage. That is a sustainable play that can be replicate.

                    10:40 - again, redzone. I don't want to type too much so I will just pick a few plays. He does has pre game snap read. Motion the WR across. Ball snap, wr pull the CB away from the TE and he goes throw his read, WR cover, 2nd read TE open; throw across his body, TD. Again, going through his motion and stay calm and collective from his pre snap count to spread out the defense to looking off the CB and come back to his original target, which he try to free up right from the get go. That's another sustainable play call that can be repeated.

                    There is one thing that i would agree with you, he does have a fumbling issue and that's need to be adjusted. He almost did not complete the come back. I wouldn't necessarily call it "He almost lost it" because he got to bring them back to almost lose it again in the first place.
                    Thanks for the detailed post. After watching the offensive line blocking against Baylor I have more respect for Hurts than ever. The fumbling issues are somewhat due to the wild play at the goal lines which hopefully we don't have to do with any pro QB. If anything I think his Height is his biggest problem with passing lanes. I hate to say it but this kid reminds of of Russel Wilson of Seattle. I really had not followed his career hardly at all but was just watching him at the combine. Smoothest release and touch of all the QB's other than Burrows.
                    My choice for #13 in this years draft....

                    1) Two top CB's Farley or Surtain
                    2) Te Te if the two above are not available
                    3) Trade down if all three are not available and we have a motivated trade partner and then draft your oline.

                    Otherwise I have visions of Fluker in my mind?!?!?!?1

                    Comment


                    • #46
                      I prefer to watch him to see he doesn't go thru his progressions like he should. Love that he can run be he takes off too much.

                      In time when Lamar gets whacked and misses time , he will run less.

                      But that's the college game.

                      Herbert has NEVER taken snap under center..... but lately rarely has Rivers for whatever reason. .....besides our OL isn't good

                      Comment


                      • #47
                        Originally posted by gzubeck View Post

                        Thanks for the detailed post. After watching the offensive line blocking against Baylor I have more respect for Hurts than ever. The fumbling issues are somewhat due to the wild play at the goal lines which hopefully we don't have to do with any pro QB. If anything I think his Height is his biggest problem with passing lanes. I hate to say it but this kid reminds of of Russel Wilson of Seattle. I really had not followed his career hardly at all but was just watching him at the combine. Smoothest release and touch of all the QB's other than Burrows.
                        Thanks for the kudo. I think when Jalen Hurts said,"I am going to bring a Championship to OU" tells you, he is ready to go all out hero ball. Like that goaline fumble in the Baylor game, that one was almost the digger to the comeback, no excuses on that. But then he came back in, keep in composure and play his game, at the end he pull through. Not before a bad snap and he had to pick up and throw away. What a wild game.

                        He was careless in ball protection as he run, and I say this is because he has 9 3/4 inch hands so he can secure with his hands and he is strong. I am sure that will be reminded first thing in pros.

                        Since you mention Russell, you can see he routinely roll out as soon as he gets the ball by design. At times they pressure was let pass on purpose as the whole line move along with Russell. He is rolling out to throw around the oline instead of over the top to compensate for his height. I believe his height wouldn't be such a problem in this day and age, when schemes are more friendly to shorter QB nowadays.

                        One thing I do think is important for mobile QB is having big hands. To hold on to the ball and secure; also the grip to throw off balance, on the run, on the back foot, across the body. Pocket passer might get away with it but for a mobile QB imo is a must. For what its worth, as "short" as they are both Drew Brees and Russell Wilson has 10inch hands.

                        Comment


                        • #48
                          Originally posted by Boltjolt View Post
                          I prefer to watch him to see he doesn't go thru his progressions like he should. Love that he can run be he takes off too much.

                          In time when Lamar gets whacked and misses time , he will run less.

                          But that's the college game.

                          Herbert has NEVER taken snap under center..... but lately rarely has Rivers for whatever reason. .....besides our OL isn't good
                          It is a system thing for him to run.

                          Speaking of Rivers, he play much less under center is because the blocking would not allow that to work. When you read in the spread you do a lot of pre snap read and the ball should be out very quickly. I mean Rivers can play in that offense no problem but imo that is counter intuitive. Philip Rivers plays under the center since he was in NCSU and is known to be able to take the ball from under center and throw it in 1.5 second. In pro offense, most of the reads is done after the ball is snap not presnap. Therefore, defense has to force to react on the go and have less time to figure out what is going on until it happens. In spread, defense can get away with only focusing on positioning themselves and go (Like the heavy Nickle package we use). It can be quite different in how to process the progression when you compare the two. My point is, so why make him run a spread offense which can be more predictable to defense when he can read just as fast and throw just as quick in an offense that inherently has more of a disguise. Because he ain't got time to even drop 5 steps and let the route develop. So either get a new QB or get a solid line, well it's expensive to buy an offensive line.

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