Welcome Josh Palmer, WR, Tennessee (Pick #77)

[Guest]

You know Palmer is going to get better.
Guyton needs to step up this year to get much playing time, barring injury.

Hoping he's worked on being quicker out of his break on out routes this offseason, or he better knows how to set up corners to get separation on it;
particularly since his route tree on the Chargers is fairly limited
and its one of the few routes he consistently runs.

From the standpoint of getting better solely because of experience, yes, I agree that Palmer is likely to get a little better, but I do not see a big jump here. Palmer is not like Tyrell Williams, who had all the ability in the world, but needed to learn how to be a WR at the NFL level. By contrast, Palmer was already pretty polished, but he does not have any sort sort of elite natural ability. So from where is any sort of big improvement coming?

Also, I have already posted the stat that Guyton was actually the best WR on our team at gaining separation. Palmer was the worst. So, Palmer needs to work on improving his ability to gain separation much more than Guyton does. So, you are just posting factually false information when you discuss Guyton not gaining separation relative to our other WRs.

[DerwinBosa]

Finally, while the team has continued to hype Palmer in a way that is disproportionate to his level of play, they already know that Palmer is not a long term replacement for either Allen or Williams. That is why after seeing Palmer play in 2021, regardless of any words said, the team's first major priority was to re-sign Mike Williams. If Palmer were "the man", there would have been no need to make such a large investment in Williams.

Telesco and company re-signed Mike Williams because he's a stud. I doubt at any point they said, "We need to re-sign Mike Williams because it's clear Joshua Palmer doesn't have what it takes to be a #1 or #2 receiver." Palmer's long-term status will be determined down the road. Luckily, unlike you, the coaching staff and front office will give him a chance to prove himself.

[Boltjolt]

Telesco and company re-signed Mike Williams because he's a stud. I doubt at any point they said, "We need to re-sign Mike Williams because it's clear Joshua Palmer doesn't have what it takes to be a #1 or #2 receiver." Palmer's long-term status will be determined down the road. Luckily, unlike you, the coaching staff and front office will give him a chance to prove himself.

Yep, CC just doesn't get it and just doesnt understand the intricates of the game. Pretty much none of it.

[chargeroo]

I thought Palmer looked pretty good for a third round pick in his rookie season. I expect to see more nice plays by him now that he has some experience n the league. I also thought Guyton was catching on and I think he can have a good year. Both of those guys will get their fair share of playing time.

[Steve]

I keep saying this, but it is true--Palmer lacks elite traits and he was already fairly polished as a route runner when he entered the league. Both of these characteristics logically seem like limiting factors for Palmer in terms of additional improvement.

I mean, Allen jukes/sets up his defender and gets open immediately. He has an elite ability to do that. That is what he relies on because he sure as heck is not going to outrun anyone. Williams has a plus sized body that he knows how to use and he is an elite receiver when it comes to contested catches and clutch catches. That is what he relies on because he does not get very much separation (really pretty much tied with Palmer for worst on the team at WR).

How does Palmer win his matchups? What can he realistically develop as his route running was already fairly polished? While not slow, he is not overly fast. His moves are below average. He is not small, but he is not a big bodied WR by any stretch of the imagination (he is the smallest of our top 4 WRs, though he is almost identical in size to Guyton). He is kind of like a slightly faster version of Allen, but without the moves that make Allen, well, Allen.

How much better do you think he is going to get from improved ability to understand coverages, leverage, adjustments, and refining his technique? Yes, he should get a little better, but why is it reasonable to think that he is suddenly going to explode onto the scene? What is that based on other than just wishful thinking? I continue to see Palmer as as thoroughly average WR out of all WRs on all 53-man rosters. He is a solid reserve.

The comparison to an injured rookie Mike Williams is ridiculous because injuries derailed Williams' rookie season and even though he was injured, anyone could see his potential, just like anyone could see it in Tyrell Williams with his height, speed and leaping ability. The elite traits of these players versus the lack of such traits from Palmer matters.

The part you seem to be forgetting was that Allen (when he was a rookie) is nothing like the Keenan Allen of today. His route running was good by college standards, but not by NFL standards. A couple of years later (and a lot of hard work) and Allen is much closer to the player we see today.

Palmer and Guyton have a lot of development to do. Personally, I think they are similar, with Palmer being somewhat better at this point. He is a big, athletic receiver who runs good routes by college standards, but needs to step up his technique and guile to take his route running to the NFL level, and further if he is going to be a top WR.

Neither Palmer or Guyton is where they need to be if they are going to be long term answers.

[dmac_bolt]

The part you seem to be forgetting was that Allen (when he was a rookie) is nothing like the Keenan Allen of today. His route running was good by college standards, but not by NFL standards. A couple of years later (and a lot of hard work) and Allen is much closer to the player we see today.

Palmer and Guyton have a lot of development to do. Personally, I think they are similar, with Palmer being somewhat better at this point. He is a big, athletic receiver who runs good routes by college standards, but needs to step up his technique and guile to take his route running to the NFL level, and further if he is going to be a top WR.

Neither Palmer or Guyton is where they need to be if they are going to be long term answers.

Not to contribute to the CC heresy, but I’d say KA as a rookie was legit from day 1. 71 catches, 1045 yards, 8 TDs … he had his instinctive ability to create quick separation from the first time I saw him. his 3rd and 4th seasons were blown up with injuries, in fact - 8 games and 1 game respectively those two years. It was year 5 he exploded and was recognized as top tier.

I further think the KA was better 3 years ago than he is today. Stats don’t say it, but to me it looks like he’s lost 1/8 of a step … he’s on the downhill. He drops a few balls he never dropped in his younger years. He’s still #1, not complaining … but every player has an arc to their career

[RockyMtnBoltFan]

The part you seem to be forgetting was that Allen (when he was a rookie) is nothing like the Keenan Allen of today. His route running was good by college standards, but not by NFL standards. A couple of years later (and a lot of hard work) and Allen is much closer to the player we see today.

Palmer and Guyton have a lot of development to do. Personally, I think they are similar, with Palmer being somewhat better at this point. He is a big, athletic receiver who runs good routes by college standards, but needs to step up his technique and guile to take his route running to the NFL level, and further if he is going to be a top WR.

Neither Palmer or Guyton is where they need to be if they are going to be long term answers.

This is the challenge with debating anything with CC. He is so focused on statistics and measurables and everything is black and white with him. So much so that he can’t fathom the gray area that is humanity, heart, smarts, work ethic, mindset, etc. He sees all of these statistics and measurables as fixed characteristics that can’t be improved upon.

However, going back to his original argument that Guyton is better suited to be the WR #3 in this offense given the current personnel I don’t think he’s wrong. I just don’t understand the need to trash Palmer in the process. Actually, given one’s a UDFA and the other is a 3rd round pick the Chargers already look to be coming out ahead. I think Guyton has developed nicely and is giving them a great return on investment. As I’ve shared before, the majority of third round picks don’t become even meaningful contributors in the NFL, let alone become starters or Pro Bowlers. For a third round pick Palmer had a solid rookie year and the most encouraging part is that he improved significantly from the beginning of the season to the end. From all accounts he sounds like a kid that is putting in the work this off-season and has a growth mindset. If that continues and he has some luck on the injury front hopefully he will continue to improve…maybe even enough to be a #2 WR some day. But it shouldn’t be considered a slight on the kid that he might not be there yet. He’s already a good player with the ability to improve. I hope Guyton improves too…I want every Charger to be the best they can and lead us to that elusive Super Bowl Chamiponship!!!

[RockyMtnBoltFan]

I keep saying this, but it is true--Palmer lacks elite traits and he was already fairly polished as a route runner when he entered the league.

Yep….and Tom Brady lacked elite traits too….just sayin’

[Steve]

Not to contribute to the CC heresy, but I’d say KA as a rookie was legit from day 1. 71 catches, 1045 yards, 8 TDs … he had his instinctive ability to create quick separation from the first time I saw him. his 3rd and 4th seasons were blown up with injuries, in fact - 8 games and 1 game respectively those two years. It was year 5 he exploded and was recognized as top tier.

I further think the KA was better 3 years ago than he is today. Stats don’t say it, but to me it looks like he’s lost 1/8 of a step … he’s on the downhill. He drops a few balls he never dropped in his younger years. He’s still #1, not complaining … but every player has an arc to their career

I wasn't saying he wasn't a good player initally, but KA was not a complete player and dealy route runner he is today. He was good, much better than either Palmer or Guyton. The point I was making is that he got to be the guy he is now my continuing to learn his craft.

[DerwinBosa]

Not to contribute to the CC heresy, but I’d say KA as a rookie was legit from day 1. 71 catches, 1045 yards, 8 TDs … he had his instinctive ability to create quick separation from the first time I saw him. his 3rd and 4th seasons were blown up with injuries, in fact - 8 games and 1 game respectively those two years. It was year 5 he exploded and was recognized as top tier.

I further think the KA was better 3 years ago than he is today. Stats don’t say it, but to me it looks like he’s lost 1/8 of a step … he’s on the downhill. He drops a few balls he never dropped in his younger years. He’s still #1, not complaining … but every player has an arc to their career

While what you say is true about Keenan's great rookie year, it wouldn't have happened like that if Danario Alexander and Malcom Floyd hadn't gotten injured that season. If I remember correctly heading into that season it was Alexander and Floyd as the top two, followed by Eddie Royal and Vincent Brown, and then Keenan struggling in the preseason to the point he was considering quitting.

[equivocation]

Not to contribute to the CC heresy, but I’d say KA as a rookie was legit from day 1. 71 catches, 1045 yards, 8 TDs … he had his instinctive ability to create quick separation from the first time I saw him. his 3rd and 4th seasons were blown up with injuries, in fact - 8 games and 1 game respectively those two years. It was year 5 he exploded and was recognized as top tier.

I further think the KA was better 3 years ago than he is today. Stats don’t say it, but to me it looks like he’s lost 1/8 of a step … he’s on the downhill. He drops a few balls he never dropped in his younger years. He’s still #1, not complaining … but every player has an arc to their career

Allen was clearly better than Palmer year 1, and was more developed coming out. But:

1. Allen is an unfair standard to hold 3rd round WRs to.
2. Allen was competing with Vincent Brown and Eddie Royal for snaps.


Remember, 3rd WR is also a starter so saying Palmer HAS to be a top 2 WR is dumb. If he's playing 60%+ of snaps and putting up good numbers by year 3 he was a good pick.

[powderblueboy]

From the standpoint of getting better solely because of experience, yes, I agree that Palmer is likely to get a little better, but I do not see a big jump here. Palmer is not like Tyrell Williams, who had all the ability in the world, but needed to learn how to be a WR at the NFL level. By contrast, Palmer was already pretty polished, but he does not have any sort sort of elite natural ability. So from where is any sort of big improvement coming?

Also, I have already posted the stat that Guyton was actually the best WR on our team at gaining separation. Palmer was the worst. So, Palmer needs to work on improving his ability to gain separation much more than Guyton does. So, you are just posting factually false information when you discuss Guyton not gaining separation relative to our other WRs.

I was discussing out routes and his limited route tree.
Refer us to a clip where Guyton doesn't have a cb draped over him on out routes.....the 4rth down drop/interference in KC comes to mind.
And Guyton's limited catch radius makes it more than necessary to create plenty of space between him and the cb.

Not certain where your assertion that Guyton was tops at gaining separation on the Chargers comes from (PFF?).
Herbert kept on missing it, because Guyton didn't get a lot of balls thrown to him;
Lombardi would also have missed it in reviewing game film, and Staley missed it......otherwise, they'd shift more emphasis towards getting Guyton the ball - which never happened.

Most importantly, i missed it.