Welcome Josh Palmer, WR, Tennessee (Pick #77)

[SuperCharged]

Me thinks this thread will not age for chain. LOL I have never seen anyone on this forum chest thump him self like cc. I find it quit entertaining. :killme:

[Guest]

And despite all of your spin on this, somehow the Chargers had more passing yards for a higher average and scored more points without Johnson than with him. Kind of makes one wonder how this could even be possible...

Well, to give you a clue, the team did not score more because they did not have Johnson. They scored more in spite of not having Johnson.

Lynn's game plans were awful. The first down run percentage was way too high and constantly put our offense behind the sticks. And Staley got us a bunch of extra points by going for it on 4th down. Herbert was better in 2021 than he was in 2020. Allen, Williams and Ekeler were all healthier in 2021 than they were in 2020, et cetera.

Also, despite producing at an elite level when given an opportunity to contribute, Johnson's opportunities were fairly limited in 2020--only 26 targets.

[Boltjolt]

Draft slotting isn't no where near a perfect science.

If it were we wouldn't have so many first round busts. You draft a player on potential and it's up to him to show they were right or wrong as the coaches try to tap that potential or refine things they do well

Being drafted in the third round and pundits having him a 4th means little as they aren't doing the drafting.

Consider who the pundits are. I'd draft a guy earlier if I really like him and fear he won't be around the next round.

Whose to say another team liked him at the top or the middle of round 4?



Most aren't scouts and Mayock being the head guy at the NFL Network for draft analysis did not draft well himself. However he also had terrible personel guy Gruden in his ear.

And I'll say again, saying Palmer won't be a good #2 based off his rookie season is a foolish statement for a guy that showed improvement all year.
There is a 3 year rule and MAYBE a certain someone will learn to use that, but I doubt it. He has an agenda.

Antonio Brown was a 6th round pick. I guess he should of sucked. Steve Smith was a 3rd, Owens was a 3rd. You just never know.

And a 4.52 is surely fast enough. MW ran a 4.54 and doing the long balls well and saying Guyton should be the #3 because he is a speed guy in with Keenan and MW...... ...well dude, that isn't how depth charts work. You gotta beat the guy out but certain situations and matchups with dictate.

[DerwinBosa]

Yeah pretty soon here we need to pull the trigger on a big time 1st round wr for Herbert.Allen is great but he aint gettin younger.This draft or next I would be stoked to nab a future super star receiver for Herb to connect with.

It would be amazing to have a Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Julio Jones, A.J. Green, or any other big-time receiver to go with Justin Herbert, but I don't view as a necessity. Herbert, probably to a greater extent than Rivers (who got more out of Danario Alexander, Tyrell Williams, and other receivers than most quarterbacks would), is the type of passer who can make receivers look much better than they actually are. If we don't find a replacement for Allen once he gets old, I think we can still win a Super Bowl with Herbert if more important areas of the team are stacked well (the offensive and defensive lines, in particular).

[DerwinBosa]

I don't expect Joshua Palmer to replace Keenan Allen in the near future, but it also won't surprise me if eventually does. I think it's foolish to say at this point that Palmer has no chance to develop into a #1 or #2 receiver for this team after he caught 33 passes for 353 yards and four touchdowns in his rookie year. Compare that to Mike Williams, who had 11 receptions for 95 yards and no touchdowns during his rookie year.

Can we give Palmer a chance before saying he can't or won't do something?

[powderblueboy]

I think this deserves a response . . . CC??

I can answer this for Chaincrusher.......no reaches!

Once someone has been drafted (hopefully in their proper consensus board certified draft slot)
production and demonstrated ability is all that matters.

Tbilly has demonstrated that he is lethal lined up with Herbert at qb....provided that the coaching staff knows how to properly use his skills.

[powderblueboy]

It would be amazing to have a Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Julio Jones, A.J. Green, or any other big-time receiver to go with Justin Herbert, but I don't view as a necessity. Herbert, probably to a greater extent than Rivers (who got more out of Danario Alexander, Tyrell Williams, and other receivers than most quarterbacks would), is the type of passer who can make receivers look much better than they actually are. If we don't find a replacement for Allen once he gets old, I think we can still win a Super Bowl with Herbert if more important areas of the team are stacked well (the offensive and defensive lines, in particular).

Danario Alexander only lacked healthy knees.....which didn't hold up anywhere.
I wouldn't quite put him in the Seyi Ajirotutu mold.

[powderblueboy]

I’m sure it was somebody else’s fault, likely Herbert’s. Mr. Elite is, well, elite. It’s why he battling a younger guy for 3rd WR, lol - which is incorrect to say as Palmer is the uncontested #3 WR, after just one season, in everyone’s mind save one.

You know Palmer is going to get better.
Guyton needs to step up this year to get much playing time, barring injury.

Hoping he's worked on being quicker out of his break on out routes this offseason, or he better knows how to set up corners to get separation on it;
particularly since his route tree on the Chargers is fairly limited
and its one of the few routes he consistently runs.

[equivocation]

You know Palmer is going to get better.
Guyton needs to step up this year to get much playing time, barring injury.

Hoping he's worked on being quicker out of his break on out routes this offseason, or he better knows how to set up corners to get separation on it;
particularly since his route tree on the Chargers is fairly limited
and its one of the few routes he consistently runs.

Agree his out and curl routes are really poor, especially near the boundary.

His best routes are seam and post. I think he is closer to adding spacing routes like over, sail, and wheel than any sudden breaking routes. Maybe sluggo. He could threaten the deep middle better than the deep boundary and really push the defense back.

But I'm really starting to repeat myself on that point.

[DerwinBosa]

Danario Alexander only lacked healthy knees.....which didn't hold up anywhere.
I wouldn't quite put him in the Seyi Ajirotutu mold.

OK. perhaps a better example is when Rivers threw for 4.710 yards, 30 touchdowns, and 13 interceptions in 2010, during which he was an MVP candidate for half the year, even though Vincent Jackson missed 11 games (most of which for a holdout), Antonio Gates missed six games, and Malcom Floyd missed five games. Rivers had to spread it around to the likes of Patrick Crayton (who missed seven games), Legadu Naanee (who missed six games), Kelley Washington, and Randy McMichael.

The point is, great quarterbacks don't need great receivers. If we don't drat a receiver in the first round for Herbert's entire tenure here I won't mind at all.

[Guest]

Tyron Johnson was rated as a 6th or 7th round draft prospect and went undrafted. So is draft ranking important only when you don't like a player, but not relevant when you do like a player?

I think this deserves a response . . . CC??

Here is my response:

richpjr quoted part of my post #1104 out of context. In post #1104, I was responding to a poster (blueman at post #1101) that had suggested that Palmer was only an injury away from a breakout season.

In explaining why I disagreed with that, I noted that Palmer was a limited player. Because of the limitations of his game, he is not going to rise to the level of Allen or Williams. That simply is not going to happen.

People have pointed out that Mike Williams had a worse rookie season than Palmer did. But that completely misses the point. The point is that the talent was always there for Williams, who is one of the best contested catch and clutch WRs in the NFL, who also features a bigger body than the vast majority of WRs. It was obvious if one has eyes.

By contrast, Palmer simply has less ability to develop. He has no elite traits and that matters. Yes, he can get some better. But he will never be a strong #1 or #2 WR like Allen and Williams are any more than Larry Rountree or Joshua Kelley will be able to take over from Austin Ekeler as the team's top RB if Ekeler were injured and proceed to have a breakout season. Yes, Palmer's stats would increase with more targets, but the quality of performance would not be on par with that of either Allen or Williams because Palmer is just a solid reserve WR like Zach Pascal or Tre'Quan Smith.

That is why I mentioned that most pundits considered Palmer to be a round 4/5 player. And that is why just as posters here would react to the notion that Tre'Quan Smith or Zach Pascal, the Palmers from other teams, were just an injury away from a breakout season, posters from everywhere but here would respond by saying, "Joshua Palmer is going to do what? Are you kidding me?"

In discussing Johnson, I am not suggesting that he has the ability to replace either Allen or Williams or have a breakout season if either were injured, and if anyone suggested that, I would say that while Johnson does have an elite trait and works well with Herbert, there is a whole range to go from being a great complementary player like Johnson was for us to emerging as a receiver on the level of Allen and Williams.

So I have not discussed Johnson's pre-draft analysis because nobody has suggested that he would have been a great or breakout player for us, though I have maintained that he would be a very effective reserve WR for us. I think he was a great value for us in 2020 as an UDFA as he had elite quality of production in limited playing time, which is great value to get from an UDFA.

Finally, while the team has continued to hype Palmer in a way that is disproportionate to his level of play, they already know that Palmer is not a long term replacement for either Allen or Williams. That is why after seeing Palmer play in 2021, regardless of any words said, the team's first major priority was to re-sign Mike Williams. If Palmer were "the man", there would have been no need to make such a large investment in Williams.

[Guest]

I don't expect Joshua Palmer to replace Keenan Allen in the near future, but it also won't surprise me if eventually does. I think it's foolish to say at this point that Palmer has no chance to develop into a #1 or #2 receiver for this team after he caught 33 passes for 353 yards and four touchdowns in his rookie year. Compare that to Mike Williams, who had 11 receptions for 95 yards and no touchdowns during his rookie year.

Can we give Palmer a chance before saying he can't or won't do something?

I keep saying this, but it is true--Palmer lacks elite traits and he was already fairly polished as a route runner when he entered the league. Both of these characteristics logically seem like limiting factors for Palmer in terms of additional improvement.

I mean, Allen jukes/sets up his defender and gets open immediately. He has an elite ability to do that. That is what he relies on because he sure as heck is not going to outrun anyone. Williams has a plus sized body that he knows how to use and he is an elite receiver when it comes to contested catches and clutch catches. That is what he relies on because he does not get very much separation (really pretty much tied with Palmer for worst on the team at WR).

How does Palmer win his matchups? What can he realistically develop as his route running was already fairly polished? While not slow, he is not overly fast. His moves are below average. He is not small, but he is not a big bodied WR by any stretch of the imagination (he is the smallest of our top 4 WRs, though he is almost identical in size to Guyton). He is kind of like a slightly faster version of Allen, but without the moves that make Allen, well, Allen.

How much better do you think he is going to get from improved ability to understand coverages, leverage, adjustments, and refining his technique? Yes, he should get a little better, but why is it reasonable to think that he is suddenly going to explode onto the scene? What is that based on other than just wishful thinking? I continue to see Palmer as as thoroughly average WR out of all WRs on all 53-man rosters. He is a solid reserve.

The comparison to an injured rookie Mike Williams is ridiculous because injuries derailed Williams' rookie season and even though he was injured, anyone could see his potential, just like anyone could see it in Tyrell Williams with his height, speed and leaping ability. The elite traits of these players versus the lack of such traits from Palmer matters.