AFC West Updates

[powderblueboy]

Kelce could probably be listed 3 times.

You'd rather have Kelce at wide out than Keenan and Mdub equivocation?

[ChargersPowderBlue]

How sweet it'll be when the Chiefs get dethroned and their reign on the AFC West comes to an end. But we can't let the Broncos or Raiders do it. I want us to be the ones to.

[powderblueboy]

Was Tges58 banned?

I was just beginning to warm up to him. Pity!

He had a good time rolling around in the mud, and now he's headed back to Chief's planet.

[equivocation]

You'd rather have Kelce at wide out than Keenan and Mdub equivocation?

Not what I was trying to imply, just that he's a generational TE and has a bigger impact than a single name on a list.

As to the question...dunno. Kelce is declining but I think is more impactful than either of them individually. It would also clear about $26M in cap space, which could be spent on another WR. Unless there's an actual trade posed the 2 for 1 question doesn't really make sense to me.

[powderblueboy]

Not what I was trying to imply, just that he's a generational TE and has a bigger impact than a single name on a list.

As to the question...dunno. Kelce is declining but I think is more impactful than either of them individually. It would also clear about $26M in cap space, which could be spent on another WR. Unless there's an actual trade posed the 2 for 1 question doesn't really make sense to me.

Kelce (33 in October) is at the age where tight ends drastically decline.
Gate's last big year was in 2014 (at the age of 34) - then a steep drop off;
Witten's last big year was 2012/2013 (at the age of 31/32/33?) - and then a slow drop off.

Cook's last 'big' year was at the age of 32;
Gronk has not been Gronk for some time;
Ertz had a pronounced drop off in his late 20's;
Greg Olsen's big drop off came at the age of 32.

Gates and Whitten were the only ones who still shined after 32 years and they had special circumstances:
Gates didn't play college football and his game was more about positioning in short spaces.

Whitten was just a freak....and it is hard to determine when he was no longer a superstar at tight end.

Kelce has played in a ton of playoff games the last 4 years, and speed is still a big component to his game.
Maybe he's Whitten, but more likely he starts to drop off sharply this year.

He's not someone I would want to rely on as my main weapon, but they are going to need to use him more than ever this year.
Not a good recipe for success.

[Boltjolt]

Kelce is at the age where tight ends drastically decline.
Gate's last big year was in 2014 (at the age of 34) - then a steep drop off;
Witten's last big year was 2012/2013 (at the age of 31/32/33?) - and then a slow drop off.

Cook's last 'big' year was at the age of 32;
Gronk has not been Gronk for some time;
Ertz had a pronounced drop off in his late 20's;
Greg Olsen's big drop off came at the age of 32.

Gates and Whitten were the only ones who still shined after 32 years and they had special circumstances:
Gates didn't play college football and he was more about positioning (& had the perfect qb to complement his game at that age);
Whitten was just a freak.

Kelce has played in a ton of playoff games the last 4 years, and speed is still a big component to his game.
Maybe he's Whitten, but more likely he starts to drop off sharply this year.

He's not someone I would want to rely on as my main weapon, but they are going to need to use him more than ever this year.
Not a good recipe for success.

Kelce is 32. He has a couple years yet and still has Mahomes. Ertz dropoff was his QB sucking. Wentz is the one with the big dropoff. Id argue same with Olson. He was injured at 32, Cam fallng off a cliff and then had Kyle Allen throwing him passes.

[equivocation]

Eye test says Kelce isn't dropping yet, but yeah it can come fast.

Keenan same draft class as Kelce.

[Velo]

Eye test says Kelce isn't dropping yet, but yeah it can come fast.

Keenan same draft class as Kelce.

Same draft class but Keenan is 2.5 yrs younger than Kelce. Keenan was drafted when he was still 20 years old. He turned 21 the day after he was drafted. He will turn 30 in one week from today. Kelce was 23.5 when he was drafted and was 24 during his rookie season.

[powderblueboy]

Kelce is 32. He has a couple years yet and still has Mahomes. Ertz dropoff was his QB sucking. Wentz is the one with the big dropoff. Id argue same with Olson. He was injured at 32, Cam fallng off a cliff and then had Kyle Allen throwing him passes.

Kelce will be 33 in October.

By that age, most tight ends experience, or already have experienced a sharp drop off in abilities.
Ertz' best days are behind him; Olsen's body started breaking down at 33.

There are a few exceptions: Gates, Whitten, Tony Gonzales, Shannon Sharpe.
Its a short list.

Kelce can still be productive with Mahomes, he very soon won't be in the elite grouping of Pitts, Kittle, Andrews.

Chiefs need him to be elite.

[Boltjolt]

Kelce will be 33 in October.

By that age, most tight ends experience, or already have experienced a sharp drop off in abilities.
Ertz' best days are behind him; Olsen's body started breaking down at 33.

There are a few exceptions: Gates, Whitten, Tony Gonzales, Shannon Sharpe.
Its a short list.

Kelce can still be productive with Mahomes, he very soon won't be in the elite grouping of Pitts, Kittle, Andrews.

Chiefs need him to be elite.

True they do but he has a couple more seasons in him. Gates we could see slowing down. I don't see that yet in Kelce. Perhaps this year we do a little.

[Steve]

The WCO is a different variation of Air Coryell is all.

Not really

Roots of the offenses:
WCO - horizontally spread offense and favors short passing. Uses a lot more really quick passing and hot routes for pass protection. Offense came from the T formation, started with split backfield
Air Coryell - vertical stretch and downfield passing. depends more on sight adjustments by backs for and depth of drop in the pass protections. Coryell was one of the fathers of the California "I-formation" running game from the 1960's, and even after the passing game started, it still used the deep RB "Ace" backfield that most closely resembles the "I-formation"

Both are multiple offenses, that have lots of different play and combinations of ways to attack defenses, and their passing game is built on timing the release of the pass to the routes being run downfield.

The other big thing is how the playcalling is done. Most, but not all WCO are built around memorizing the plays. Air Coryell is mostly designed around packages and rule-based (less memorizing).

Both offenses took a lot from Gillman's offense.
WCO is a direct descendant because Al Davis learned the offense from Gillman as an assistant coach for the Chargers. Bill Walsh ended up learning the Gillman offense from Davis when he was coaching at Stanford as an assistant coach, before being the Raiders RB coach. Walsh just kept adding pieces to the original Gillman passing game. When he didn't have the blockers to sustain the downfield passing Gillman preferred, he went to shorter passing and Gillman's O already had the passing tree for the RB as part of the offense he learned from the Raiders, even though RB back then were not used as pass receivers much.

Coryell was one of the I-formation pioneers and helped install it at USC, but then realized when he moved to SDSU he would never be able to recruit well enough to compete against the powerhouse running teams, so he knew he needed to turn his run-first offense into a passing offense, to get by with less talented (or at least less highly recruited) talent. Coryell was certainly inspired by Gillman, both being in the football coaching community in California in the late 1950's and early 1960's, but Coryell never worked with Gillman directly. Since Coryell used his I formation RB as the basis, they were so far behind the line that it was hard for them to be used a lot as receivers, so he relied more on RB in pass protection, which was more like traditional passing games in the 1960's, and 70's did it.

[Craig440]

Not really

Roots of the offenses:
WCO - horizontally spread offense and favors short passing. Uses a lot more really quick passing and hot routes for pass protection. Offense came from the T formation, started with split backfield
Air Coryell - vertical stretch and downfield passing. depends more on sight adjustments by backs for and depth of drop in the pass protections. Coryell was one of the fathers of the California "I-formation" running game from the 1960's, and even after the passing game started, it still used the deep RB "Ace" backfield that most closely resembles the "I-formation"

Both are multiple offenses, that have lots of different play and combinations of ways to attack defenses, and their passing game is built on timing the release of the pass to the routes being run downfield.

The other big thing is how the playcalling is done. Most, but not all WCO are built around memorizing the plays. Air Coryell is mostly designed around packages and rule-based (less memorizing).

Both offenses took a lot from Gillman's offense.
WCO is a direct descendant because Al Davis learned the offense from Gillman as an assistant coach for the Chargers. Bill Walsh ended up learning the Gillman offense from Davis when he was coaching at Stanford as an assistant coach, before being the Raiders RB coach. Walsh just kept adding pieces to the original Gillman passing game. When he didn't have the blockers to sustain the downfield passing Gillman preferred, he went to shorter passing and Gillman's O already had the passing tree for the RB as part of the offense he learned from the Raiders, even though RB back then were not used as pass receivers much.

Coryell was one of the I-formation pioneers and helped install it at USC, but then realized when he moved to SDSU he would never be able to recruit well enough to compete against the powerhouse running teams, so he knew he needed to turn his run-first offense into a passing offense, to get by with less talented (or at least less highly recruited) talent. Coryell was certainly inspired by Gillman, both being in the football coaching community in California in the late 1950's and early 1960's, but Coryell never worked with Gillman directly. Since Coryell used his I formation RB as the basis, they were so far behind the line that it was hard for them to be used a lot as receivers, so he relied more on RB in pass protection, which was more like traditional passing games in the 1960's, and 70's did it.

Wow!