Say it is so...

[6025]

Agree with mako, 14 years of excuses is a tough one to ignore, especially when other teams (with lesser records!) in other cities (with their own money problems) got new stadiums.

Be interesting to compare those cities in the last 14 years that built stadiums with San Diego regarding money problems.

But really, is that an excuse to suddenly bolt for LA when San Diego is willing to deal? Without trying to hear the deal and negotiate in earnest? It's bullshit. They want LA, and probably always have.

[RTPbolt]

I'll be honest im more in line with Mako's thinking. I grew up in San Diego in the Fouts days and never recall having sellout issues and the fan base was far more behind the team than now. We HAVE had a very competitive team for the last 13ish years...some great years yet the city seemed to be far too conservative to really come to the table seriously. Frankly im surprised the Spanos put up with it this long before seriously considering options.


It Is complicated folks. This is a big money decision for both sides. I get that. The fans IMO havent come out in droves to support the team during games. Im a bit disappointed considering how competitive we have been to see Raiders or Cheatriots or Denver fans visibly taking over the the stadium like they have. Obviously we are the diehard fans but i do wonder if San Diego just isnt an ideal business market with fans that cant come out to support it. That said I know pricing factors in too...it isnt cheap either to get season tix. The economics have to be right for both sides for this to work...maybe they just arent good enough for both parties...ever think of it that way? Its a complicated situation.

We dont have all the inside information and never will. What i do see is a city and fans that have not been stellar for years during good to great times in supporting their franchise...thats concerning to me as I love my Chargers and would be at games if I lived there now. I can the business side seeing San Diego as riskier than an LA market with a much larger potential fan base. As much as the Spanos ptobably do want to stay they have numerous cities as models to look at that says San Diego probably isnt the ideal city for a team anymore....they can probably do better in LA. Im not happy saying that but I think its true...the city said FU for years and now its 11:59pm and they show up? Fan support hasnt been there consistently to me...i wish it wasnt the case. Just because the city portrays this as "we are here with a deal" doesnt mean its a fair or competitive deal...we dont have that level of information despite what they try to spin in the media.

At this point i think San Diego may have taken too long and the grass may look greener in LA. Could still see some deals to be made but I think its more likely they move and I can understand the reasonings of the Spanoses. I can also understand the high economic risk for the city/county not wanting to take on the burden of supporting a team like other cities have. Maybe its better off economically not putting the $$ into a sports team?

I really dont want the Chargers to leave but I get it takes a lot of things to be right for it to work. You cant blame one side in this IMO. It may not be the best thing for San Diego frankly or the Chargers to stay.

RTPbolt

[MakoShark]

If they "always wanted LA" they would have and could have bolted years ago (pardon the pun). At one point, didn't the Chargers just ask the City for the land at the Mission Valley site to build and develop? Over the years the Chargers have investigated numerous sites and made offers to the City that were all rejected. Not even the NFL telling the City that their stadium was no longer adequate to host Super Bowls got the City's attention. Not counting the recent proposal how many plans did the City bring to the Chargers table in the last decade? Fabiani's tune didn't change until recently. He spent the better part of the last decade reaching out to the City and it fell on deaf ears. Don't blame the messenger.

The recession hit Cali hard, I understand that. But the pension crises that's an excuse and falls on your own elected officials which trickles down to the voters. Most recently SD elected a mayor that was more interested in chasing skirts than dealing with real issues. How many Mayors has SD had since the Chargers have been trying for a new stadium? And not one, until recently, would make a fair effort at a solution. Own it SD. You had your chance and you blew it. Don't blame the Spani for doing whats in the best interests of their asset. They were more than patient and they did honestly try for at least a decade.

[MakoShark]

A good deal of those 14 years, things couldn't get done because of mayors coming and going every year and the recession and the pension crisis. The only real proposal the Chargers put forward was ten years ago. Why are they acting like brats now? I still think it's all posturing but if it's not and they leave now, it's on them. They're not even trying to cooperate with a mayor that's finally willing to really work on this.

Not to say the Chargers are the only ones to blame but "the City and its citizens have no one to blame but themsleves."? Are you kidding me? Don't spew that Fabiani crap.

...says the guy making excuses and regurgitating the media crap. Faulconer and his committee are too late. Just how long were the Spani supposed to sit around and wait for a guy like him to come along?

[KNSD]

If they "always wanted LA" they would have and could have bolted years ago (pardon the pun).

My conspiracy theory is that Dean was too cheap to pay the exit fee for leaving before the bond was paid off.

At one point, didn't the Chargers just ask the City for the land at the Mission Valley site to build and develop?

Yup. And then the Chargers passed on it. Not a city problem.

Over the years the Chargers have investigated numerous sites and made offers to the City that were all rejected.

If you really want to call offers to Oceanside, Escondido, Chula Vista as offers to the City, then yeah the city rejected the Chargers 14 times. The other times the city rejected the Chargers were when the Chargers asked for the moon (a new stadium to be paid for by T.O.T. taxes or CDCC funds or some other way where the Chargers were going to maximize revenue by taking all the PSL's, advertising revenues, etc... instead of using that revenue to help fund the stadium).

Not even the NFL telling the City that their stadium was no longer adequate to host Super Bowls got the City's attention. Not counting the recent proposal how many plans did the City bring to the Chargers table in the last decade? Fabiani's tune didn't change until recently. He spent the better part of the last decade reaching out to the City and it fell on deaf ears. Don't blame the messenger.

The recession hit Cali hard, I understand that. But the pension crises that's an excuse and falls on your own elected officials which trickles down to the voters. Most recently SD elected a mayor that was more interested in chasing skirts than dealing with real issues. How many Mayors has SD had since the Chargers have been trying for a new stadium? And not one, until recently, would make a fair effort at a solution. Own it SD. You had your chance and you blew it. Don't blame the Spani for doing whats in the best interests of their asset. They were more than patient and they did honestly try for at least a decade.

It's not that the Chargers don't want to stay in San Diego. They just want to stay in San Diego AT THE RIGHT PRICE. Instead of being dicks about it (The Spanos family, through Fabiani, lie to everybody all the time) and giving bullshit reasons why they won't negotiate a with the city on a stadium, they could simply tell the truth to the public. Then the city could simply say that the Chargers' price is too high and everybody could move forward with much less drama.

[MakoShark]

Sounds like a spin job KNSD. Wasn't that Bond paid off back in 08? And, nobody ever said they made offers to the Cities you listed. Those were proposed sites that they were taking back to the City of SD. The Chargers are a for profit business and should make money from a new venue(it will help them stay competitive in the league), as should the City. From my POV its been the City that hasn't ante'd up. Its been the City that hasn't negotiated "in good faith" for the last decade. Maybe you're so offended by the idea that they could move that you need someone to blame, but the Spani are hardly being "dicks about it". Everything they've said, through Fabiani, from environmental impact reports to potential litigation tie ups to the voting referendum to the logistics of the Mission Valley site are true and accurate. They are protecting their asset

[6025]

Sounds like a spin job KNSD. Wasn't that Bond paid off back in 08? And, nobody ever said they made offers to the Cities you listed. Those were proposed sites that they were taking back to the City of SD. The Chargers are a for profit business and should make money from a new venue(it will help them stay competitive in the league), as should the City. From my POV its been the City that hasn't ante'd up. Its been the City that hasn't negotiated "in good faith" for the last decade. Maybe you're so offended by the idea that they could move that you need someone to blame, but the Spani are hardly being "dicks about it". Everything they've said, through Fabiani, from environmental impact reports to potential litigation tie ups to the voting referendum to the logistics of the Mission Valley site are true and accurate. They are protecting their asset

The city did make mistakes the past 20 years or so. The first one was to go to the Chargers and basically gift them the (admittedly horrendous) upgrade to Jack Murphy Stadium which included the ticket guarantee. There was no need at the time to make this offer, and had they held back perhaps a new stadium could have been built.

But the Chargers acted like smug assholes after that deal. The city realized they fucked up with the ticket guarantee but the Chargers wouldn't let them off the hook. "A deal is a deal" they said, laughing about it all along. Yes, the city did it to themselves, but the team hardly acted like a business partner there.

After the upgrades were done, The Padres made moves of their own and did the seemingly impossible - they got a stadium built, and downtown to boot. The Chargers, just four short years after being gifted with the upgrades to the Q while refusing to negotiate with the city over the ticket guarantee (a deal is a deal!), let it slip to the public that they too wanted a new stadium. They weren't visionary enough to seize the moment when they could have back in 1995, even with the ineptitude of the city.

For "14 years" the Chargers claim to have been jilted, but even with the shitty conditions at the Q they knew they had a very team-friendly deal (in terms of dollars), especially when they finally did renegotiate the ticket guarantee to allow them the out clause each February. A clause they haven't exercised because it's a bargain to them rent-wise.

And yes, the Chargers have been competitive in the 00's, but let's look at the situation as a whole. They had the golden goose all setup - a 14-2 record, a proven coach (albeit not in the playoffs), a GM who was making all the right moves, but it imploded in another GM-Coach feud. Just like it had after the last great era in the early 90s with Ross and Beathard. Spanos couldn't make Ross/Beathard work, and again he couldn't make Marty/AJ work. He was (and is) a weak owner who should've nipped that shit in the bud years earlier. You think the Rooneys, the Jerry Joneses, hell, even the Al Davis's would've put up with that bullshit? And what was the end solution to these bullshit issues? Kevin Gilbride and Norv Turner. We can't win because we don't have a winner at the top. Even when the cards are stacked in our favor we can't do it.

But the bottom line is all that shit is in the past. To use the "too late, you should've come to the table earlier" excuse is really just bullshit. The Chargers knew damn well the issues the city faced during the 00's with their financial situation, and it seemed to me they understood. Now that the time is right for the city, they play these stupid games and refuse to negotiate. It's clear they want LA but they only want it because of Kronke. Spanos has hardly been a victim in this thing, he orchestrated some of it too.

I've said all along that both sides should take blame for the stuff in the past, but it is in the past. What's important to me is the now. Now the time is right for this thing getting done here but the Chargers don't want to play ball. Which is ok but they do it in such a bullshit way with Fibs pulling all of his spin move stuff, it makes me sick. How anyone can condone these slimy maneuvers being pulled by the Chargers is beyond me, even if you want to blame the city 100% for the past.

[Wheels]

If they "always wanted LA" they would have and could have bolted years ago (pardon the pun).

Sorry but that is just blatantly false. There was nowhere to go in LA.

[KNSD]

Sounds like a spin job KNSD. Wasn't that Bond paid off back in 08? And, nobody ever said they made offers to the Cities you listed. Those were proposed sites that they were taking back to the City of SD. The Chargers are a for profit business and should make money from a new venue(it will help them stay competitive in the league), as should the City. From my POV its been the City that hasn't ante'd up. Its been the City that hasn't negotiated "in good faith" for the last decade. Maybe you're so offended by the idea that they could move that you need someone to blame, but the Spani are hardly being "dicks about it". Everything they've said, through Fabiani, from environmental impact reports to potential litigation tie ups to the voting referendum to the logistics of the Mission Valley site are true and accurate. They are protecting their asset

1. What's the city of San Diego going to do with a stadium proposal in the city of Oceanside or the city of Chula Vista?
2. You mean logistics of the Mission Valley site such as toxic spill cleanup issues, and the 500 million dollars needed to bring in landfill to raise the stadium?

The Chargers could, RIGHT NOW, be in talks with the city to get a deal done for 2016 regardless of an EIR being done in October. Instead of saying "We are not in negotiations because we want a downtown stadium and a better deal", they say "You can't get an EIR done." So yeah, they are being dicks about it. They should just man up and say what they really want in a clear voice directly from their ownership group.

[MakoShark]

Sorry but that is just blatantly false. There was nowhere to go in LA.

There's nowhere to go in LA now.

[Wheels]

There's nowhere to go in LA now.

There appears to be more options now, but 2006, there was absolutely nothing.

[MakoShark]

1. What's the city of San Diego going to do with a stadium proposal in the city of Oceanside or the city of Chula Vista?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe jump in and see if its actually do-able. The team would still be in SD County and its not like they would change their name to the Chula Vista Chargers.

2. You mean logistics of the Mission Valley site such as toxic spill cleanup issues, and the 500 million dollars needed to bring in landfill to raise the stadium?

Point? A sarcastic dig at the Carson site proposal I presume?

The Chargers could, RIGHT NOW, be in talks with the city to get a deal done for 2016 regardless of an EIR being done in October. Instead of saying "We are not in negotiations because we want a downtown stadium and a better deal", they say "You can't get an EIR done." So yeah, they are being dicks about it. They should just man up and say what they really want in a clear voice directly from their ownership group.

This I can agree with. But, I can see their POV regarding the issue of leaving themselves open to getting tied up in litigation (which is inevitable, IMO), then losing the window of opportunity they have in LA. They gave SD a fair chance, but have moved on. It would be great if the Spani would come out and clear the air, but we both know they're way to wishy-washy to do it. Does that make them assholes? Maybe to you. To me, it just exposes them as the weak individuals that they are.