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Originally posted by powderblueboy
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Sorry if I'm dating myself. LOL.
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I get it. But that's kind of like saying Vince Lombardi inherited Bart Starr, Paul Hornung, JIm Taylor, Ray Nitschke, Forrest Gregg, Jim Ringo, and Jerry Kramer, all Hall of Famers drafted by the Packers before Lombarid got there, and then saying Lombardi screwed up with his poor drafts at the end (he picked two running backs to replace the aging Hornung and Taylor, and they were busts).
Sorry if I'm dating myself. LOL. -
2nd/3rd/4rth round choices of Telesco (& staff) the last 4 drafts:
2019: Nasir Adderly / Trey Pipkens / Drew Tranquil
2020: Kenneth Murray / Josh Kelley
2021: Asante Samuel / Josh Palmer / Tre McKitty / Chris Rumph
2022*: JT Woods / Isaiah Spiller
* note: Khalil Mack is not a shrewd evaluation of a college player - do not include him in the argument
I see a lot of Jags.
Adderly is now somewhat of a failure;
Pipkens has come along, but he has produced next to nothing over 4 years (& now you have to pay him a lot to retain him);
Tranquil is meh......
Samuel might be the best (he's not a difference maker); Palmer was an okay pick who is putting up numbers.
Woods is extremely shaky starting off.
People point out how Telesco is improving as GM......I don't see it with these middle draft picks.
Its not like he's making hay on the back end of the draft.Comment
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Maybe, retain Telesco as an assistant GM (in charge of 1rst round draft picks),
and then tell him to leave the draft room immediately once the pick has been made.
Perhaps, John Spanos has been taking charge of the draft room all along after the 1rst round.....we'll never know.Comment
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The stats to me that matter for TelescoOriginally posted by powderblueboy View Post
ZERO - as in division titles
TWO - wildcard appearances winning
TWO - playoff wins as well as playoff losses. Beating the Ravens and Bengals but losing to the Patriots and Broncos.
Overall record - under .500
Andy Reid has kicked this guys backside for many years and Denver did as well
He just hasn't put together consistent teams when he was gifted Rivers and drafted Herbert
He just isn't good. And I get the Spanii are not great but AJ Smith with Marty won in spite of the Spanii. Granted, JohnBoy wasn't in the room until I think 2009 or 2010Comment
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Yep...some of those mid-rounders should have panned out into at least a few solid starters. And don't forget these other memorable TT busts:Originally posted by powderblueboy View Post
Lamp
Feeney
Tuerk
Perry
Mager
Watt
Teo
FlukeComment
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Tom Telesco has 7 games left in his career in Los Angeles. MOJO!Comment
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One more point on the brain trust that is Dean Spanos, John, and Tom Telesco: They are about to make their fourth head coaching decision - Mike McCoy, Anthony Lynn, & Brandon Staley - in a row and their track record of hires (with reported hired consultants such as Ron Wolf to inform and guide their choices) as a group, is shiate.
Vito and Fredo Corleone, aka Deano and John Spanos, will choose power for Fredo over all candidates. Because Fredo is smart and wants respect.
I've been reading Hub for 30 years. This article is what the Bears went through after Black Monday last January, when team chairman George McCaskey made two bad hires in a row. First, McCaskey got consultants, and then they compiled the best choices at GM in the league. Hub Arkush reported that there wasn't a lemon in the bunch. This is Year One of the Bears new regime.
https://www.shawlocal.com/bears/analysis/2022/01/13/hub-arkush-my-top-choices-for-bears-general-manager-coach/Comment
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I don't see any Vito Corleone in any Spanos (pity); i do see a lot of Fredo in both Deano & John Boy.Originally posted by ghost View Post
Fredo was always a nebish, pushed aside from the family business by the more competent siblings: Sonny & Michael.
Fredo was always trying to prove himself and carve out a place in the family business; but his stupidity got in the way.
Its as if both Sonny & Michael were gunned down, Vito had a stroke, and Fredo was pushed to the front of the Corleone organization.
That is the story of Dean Spanos and the Spanos legacy; John Boy is Fredo's pathetic son.
That is where this organization is at this moment. Maybe Connie can get us out of this mess. :shrug:Comment
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If they can't get Michael to take over the family business, which we all would support, at least get Moe GreenLast edited by powderblueboy; 11-24-2022, 12:49 PM.Comment
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This is the diminished bed-ridden Vito after the Virgil Sollozzo hit and the Fredo in Vegas, that I am seeing. There is no Michael.Originally posted by powderblueboy View Post
And to further quote Kate from The Godfather II. Something that's unholy and evil. And it must all end.Last edited by ghost; 11-24-2022, 12:49 PM.Comment
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GamePlan: Our Annual List of Future NFL General Managers
My #1 candidate is Mike Borgonzi. Dan Morgan is #2, Jeff Ireland would be an interesting pairing with Sean Payton in LA too, don't you think?I was talking to a team executive on Thursday, one who’s hired a GM, about the idea of finding a scout for that job, versus getting someone from the football operations side, and eventually we got to what specifically he’d look for in a candidate. His prerequisites might be a little different than you’d expect.
1) An ability to hire staff.
2) An ability to work productively with the head coach.
3) An ability to manage people.
You might notice there’s nothing in there about finding a quarterback, maximizing a third-round pick or building out depth in your secondary. There also isn’t anything about managing the cap or implementing analytics. Why? Well, you can find people to do all of those things. And it’s great if the GM can check off a couple of those boxes themself. But ultimately, they’re going to need help, and that takes finding and deploying good people effectively.
“To me, it’s about how you build the best and most cohesive organization,” said the exec. “Picking players is a huge part of it, but so is working with the coach, and managing trainers and equipment managers, all of that. The more complex that job gets, you get to the point where it might actually be easier to find people who are good at choosing talent but don’t have the rest of the skill set to fill a director or VP type of role.
“You can go either way.”
And while scouts used to rail against that idea, even guys rooted in that side of the business who have ascended to GM roles agree: The job isn’t even close to being the same as the ones they held in climbing the ladder through personnel departments.
“You are the general manager—you can take that literally,” said one such NFC GM. “The job is broad, and so you have to be able to hire people that offset your own weaknesses. It’s not even necessarily a football job all the time. I deal with HR, I deal with contracts, I deal with things I’ve never had to deal with in my life. So no matter how well-trained you are, and obviously the more you’ve been exposed to, the better, you’re going be learning on the run.
“That’s why you need good people. You need good logistics people. You need a good cap guy. You’re responsible for a lot. … The idea of the GM being a guy who shuts his door and watches tape, that’s fading. Organizations are getting too big. There’s too much information coming in.”
It’s at the point now where, this GM said, he has to carve out time into his days to make sure he does get some of what he was hired for (which actually was finding players) in amid everything else—so he’ll try to get some pro tape done in the morning on Wednesdays, Thursdays and Fridays, and look at college guys in the afternoons.
Another NFC GM told me he shoots to study 12 to 15 players a week (mostly college guys) on tape, just so he can accumulate a working knowledge to be effective with his scouts when the offseason arrives. His initial goal was actually to get three guys in per day in-season (which works out to 18 per week, with game day obviously excluded from the equation), but the volume of nonscouting things that cross his desk made that impossible.
“The GM manages personnel, cap, training room, video, equipment, security, analytics and player engagement,” the GM said. “And he has to hire those people [to run those departments] and then balance all those opinions.”
And ultimately, as the job has grown, so has the importance of a GM’s ability to synthesize what can seem like an endless well of information, then make decisions off it.
Those decisions can encompass everything from deciding how the weight room should be set up, to budgeting for sports science, to incorporating analytics into football decisions and, yes, ultimately to whom you might take with your first-round pick.
“The learning curve is tough because of the breadth of responsibilities that come across your plate, and how integrated everything has to be for an organization to have success,” said one AFC GM. “You can take a player you’re gonna acquire, it starts with college scouts, the area scouts’ information, their strengths and weaknesses; then it goes to the coaching staff, with personnel group’s input, in how they land in your scheme, then to your research group on how they should be valued; and your doctors, trainers on the medical.
“And then the GM executes the acquisition. And you get him, and now he’s in the building, and you hand him off to your coaches, player development people and support staff, and now they’re running the show.”
The GM then explained how, after that, there’s how a player’s life skills play into how he winds up playing, and how coaching gets him to game day, and then years later, if things go well, it can swing back to the personnel department to make decisions on giving a guy a contract, or maybe eventually trading him, or letting him go with an eye on comp picks.
And that’d just be a decision on a single player. Such decisions need to be made away from the actual 53-man roster too (coaching contracts, allocating resources, etc., etc.).
If your head is spinning at all this, then you get the idea.
“I don’t know how just scouting the Southeast would have you ready for the job,” said the second NFC GM. “There’s a lot that goes into it.”
So with that in mind, we’re going to give you our 13th annual future GMs list. And in the spirit of the column, we’re breaking it up—with one category stocked with scouting folks, and then a handful of operations people to follow.
SCOUTING SIDE CANDIDATES
Mike Borgonzi, Chiefs assistant GM: Originally brought aboard by ex-Kansas City GM Scott Pioli, Borgonzi steadily rose through the organization, then was held over by Andy Reid and John Dorsey. Under Pioli, the Brown alum got experience on the ops side, served as the team’s pro scouting director, and as Brett Veach’s No. 2 has more recently been involved on the college side, too.
Brandon Brown, Eagles director of player personnel: Part of Howie Roseman’s robust scouting department, Brown’s primary experience is in pro scouting. But he’s done more with the draft over the last year, and has a really interesting background, with a law degree and a job in college football compliance giving him a good ability to see the big picture organizationally.
Morocco Brown, Colts college scouting director: A decade ago, Brown was seen as riser in the field, having ascended to pro director in Washington, before Ray Farmer hired him in Cleveland to be Farmer’s No. 2. Unfortunately for Brown, Farmer only lasted two years in that job, and Brown had to reset thereafter. Since, he’s reemerged as a vital piece of Chris Ballard’s staff in Indy—and as the lead guy on the college side, giving him experience having directed both a pro and college department.
Ran Carthon, 49ers director of player personnel: Ryan Cowden, Titans VP of player personnel: Cowden worked under Marty Hurney and Dave Gettleman in Carolina, and now have five years of experience working in GM Jon Robinson’s Patriot-centric scouting system. He’s worked extensively on both the college and pro sides, and interviewed for the Washington GM job last year, with ex-Panthers coach Ron Rivera.
Glenn Cook, Browns VP of player personnel: Ian Cunningham, Eagles director of player personnel: Ed Dodds, Colts assistant GM: Long seen as one of the NFL’s premier evaluators, Dodds was seen as a secret weapon of Seattle GM John Schneider’s, before Ballard swiped him from the Seahawks upon arriving in Indy. Since then, he’s become Ballard’s right-hand man as the Colts have built one of the NFL’s most talented rosters. Dodds interviewed with the Panthers and Lions last year, and was very high on Robert Saleh’s list of potential GMs had Saleh not landed in a place with a sitting GM.
Joe Hortiz, Ravens director of player personnel: The Ravens’ longtime college scouting director moved into Eric DeCosta’s old role when DeCosta replaced a retiring Newsome, and still runs the draft while serving in a more comprehensive capacity. Given how Baltimore has continued to be innovative and forward-thinking as an organization, on just about every front, Hortiz should be well-positioned to get his shot soon.
Brandon Hunt, Steelers pro scouting director: Hunt’s another Steelers personnel man to work through the ranks, and he could be in line to take another step forward if GM Kevin Colbert retires after the draft. He’s worked on both the pro and college side, and the team’s pro department has shined over the last few years, with the team more active in seeking veteran additions (Minkah Fitzpatrick, Joe Haden, etc.).
Jeff Ireland, Saints assistant GM: Ireland’s draft record since landing in New Orleans has been incredible—since knocking it out of the park in 2016 and ’17 on draft day, the Saints have consistently fielded one of the NFL’s most talented rosters. The ex-Dolphins GM interviewed for the Detroit and Carolina openings last year, and is very well-connected in the sport.
Will McClay, Cowboys VP of player personnel: The question isn’t whether McClay could land a job, it’s whether he’ll want to go—he’s the top personnel man in the Cowboys’ organization, he’s rooted in Texas and the Jones family loves and takes good care of him. And for good reason—McClay’s helped Dallas consistently field outstanding rosters, and has experience not just in scouting but also coaching and analytics. (There’s a big part of me that believes he’s exactly what the Giants need.)
Dan Morgan, Panthers assistant GM: Morgan’s name should sound familiar. But the ex-Panthers linebacker isn’t just a former player—he very much paid his dues working his way up in the Seattle pro scouting department during the Legion of Boom years, before going to Buffalo as a key piece of the Bills’ rebuild. He’s been in Carolina since May, helping lead Scott Fitterer’s strong department, which included a couple of guys, in VP Pat Stewart and lead negotiator Samir Suleiman, who were also considered for the GM job in Charlotte.
Monti Ossenfort, Titans director of player personnel: Ossenfort succeeded Robinson as Patriots college scouting director nearly a decade ago, then followed him to Nashville, and in doing so has diversified his portfolio. He was a finalist for the Panthers’ GM job last year, and his New England–based connection to Giants coach Joe Judge (the two have a good relationship) could put him in contention for the Giants job next month.
Adam Peters, 49ers assistant GM: Peters was another finalist for the Carolina job last year, and has worked for John Elway in Denver and Bill Belichick in New England. He originally went to Denver with Josh McDaniels in 2009, which could be something to keep in mind should McDaniels land a job somewhere.
John Spytek, Buccaneers VP of player personnel: Spytek replaced Robinson in Tampa Bay, and has been integral to building the Bucs into champion alongside Jason Licht for the last six years. Before that, he worked on the college scouting side in Denver, winning a Super Bowl there, and started in his career in a loaded personnel department under Andy Reid in Philly.
Jon-Eric Sullivan, Packers director of player personnel: A newcomer to the list! Sullivan’s name came up a bunch when I called around the last couple of weeks. Brian Gutekunst has Sullivan captaining the personnel department, and his background is very similar to that of the GM—he worked his way to become a Southeast area scout for the Packers, before becoming Green Bay’s college scouting director. Sullivan’s one of a number of young guys to watch in that department (pro director Richmond Williams is another).
Duke Tobin, Bengals director of player personnel: Tobin is, in many ways, already a GM. Could someone pry him from the Bengals? It doesn’t seem likely, but there’d be reason for interest. Tobin was a hot name a few years back, credited with building Cincinnati’s playoff teams from 2011 to ’15, and he’s since got through a teardown and built the team back up to a point where it sure looks like Cincinnati has a chance to be very good for a while again.
Adrian Wilson, Cardinals VP of pro scouting: You remember Wilson as the enforcer in the secondary for some excellent Cardinals teams more than a decade ago. But since then? He’s become Arizona GM Steve Keim’s right-hand man, so he brings scouting expertise, and the sort of player credibility John Lynch has, to the table. The Cards’ personnel department—which has other strong names for the future like Quentin Harris and Dru Grigson—has done a very nice job in rebuilding what was a really shaky roster a few years back.
Eliot Wolf, Patriots scouting consultant: The son of the legendary Ron Wolf is back on the list, and deservedly so. Wolf was runner-up for the Packers’ job in 2018, when Gutekunst was elevated, after being a cornerstone for the Green Bay scouting department for years. He then left for Cleveland, where he was Dorsey’s assistant GM, before those guys were blown out after the ’19 season. And in New England? He’s been invaluable, helping the Patriots change their scouting setup last year, by bringing a strong outside perspective.
OPERATIONS SIDE CANDIDATES
Chad Brinker, Packers personnel/football administration executive:Mike Greenberg, Buccaneers VP of football administration: One of the most respected contract negotiators in the sport, Greenberg has become one of Licht’s most trusted confidants—and he more or less frees Licht to be an evaluator because he’s fully capable of running everything else. Tampa’s ability to keep the team together this offseason was in no small part thanks to how Greenberg set up the team’s cap; the Bucs had budgeted incredibly responsibly over the years, which allowed for them to stretch things this year.
Tony Pastoors, Rams VP of football and business administration:The question with Pastoors, as it has been with Greenberg and Khan, is whether he’s on a GM track or a team president track. Either way, the ex-Dartmouth football player has a bright future. He’s responsible for the team’s salary cap, but really is in on every part of the team’s football operations, working closely with team COO Kevin Demoff.
She’s just 32, and maybe a couple of years away, but she’s now in Berry’s old role in Philly, and Berry tried to take her to Cleveland with him. She has a law degree, ran contracts for the Toronto Argonauts, then became the Argos’ assistant GM and, for good measure, is fluent in three languages. And according to those who’ve worked with her, she’s capable in all facets of personnel. One ex-colleague of hers plainly said, “She will be the first female GM.”
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Ryan Cowden, Titans VP of player personnel: Cowden worked under Marty Hurney and Dave Gettleman in Carolina, and now have five years of experience working in GM Jon Robinson’s Patriot-centric scouting system. He’s worked extensively on both the college and pro sides, and interviewed for the Washington GM job last year, with ex-Panthers coach Ron Rivera.
I believe Cowden could bring toughness of personnel and depth to the Chargers.Comment
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