Touchy Subject....How is Derwin James "Elite"?

[gzubeck]

One of my major concerns with Staley is his stubbornness in dealing with (his) failures. It would be like him to burn thru 1/4 or even 1/2 of next season before admitting the DJ experiment wasn't working. Winning in the NFL is extremely hard - we have to be able to maximize the abilities of all of our players, and the coaching staff should be the ones who make decisions as to who plays where and what their responsibilities are, depending on their specific abilities - not the players. I think he also defers too much to his star players - trying too hard to be a 'players coach'.

We'll se if he's learned anything . . . . .

Or, maybe our DC is a lightweight in some areas. Our defense did pretty good given our horrendous injury situation. Our wheels flew off the bus for most of the season on Defense and we didn't have star players on offense.

[OG619FrightninLightnin]

Against who?

Miami(?)

[DerwinBosa]

Miami(?)

Yes, that was the best of them, a team that wasn't good at running the football, which proved to be a good matchup for us, since we couldn't stop the run.

So let's discount everything Derwin James has accomplished so far in his career and trade him because the defense "played well" without him against one winning team that didn't run the football (Miami) and two teams that missed the playoffs (Tennessee and the Rams). Let's also forget that the Rams were playing with Baker Mayfield at quarterback, just a few weeks after they picked him up following his release from the Panthers.

Thank you for answering.

[Lefty2SLO]

Yes, that was the best of them, a team that wasn't good at running the football, which proved to be a good matchup for us, since we couldn't stop the run.

So let's discount everything Derwin James has accomplished so far in his career and trade him because the defense "played well" without him against one winning team that didn't run the football (Miami) and two teams that missed the playoffs (Tennessee and the Rams). Let's also forget that the Rams were playing with Baker Mayfield at quarterback, just a few weeks after they picked him up following his release from the Panthers.

Thank you for answering.

Serious question; I get that Derwin / Bosa are 'your' guys, but what have they done (this year) to help the team win? Derwin hasn't produced any game changing plays. Bosa has - but for the wrong team. They're both very good players, but have they played up to their salaries?

[Maniaque 6]

Can you imagine a Chargers starting line up without Bosa and James ?

[DerwinBosa]

Serious question; I get that Derwin / Bosa are 'your' guys, but what have they done (this year) to help the team win? Derwin hasn't produced any game changing plays. Bosa has - but for the wrong team. They're both very good players, but have they played up to their salaries?

It's unfair to say with Bosa. He was injured. If you want to complain that he's missed 30 games in seven years I have no issue with that, although it's not like he sat out with minor injures. They're part of the game, unfortunately, and we have seen others, such as Keenan (after missing 23 games in 2015 and 2016), come back and play full seasons for the majority of their careers.

Yes, Bosa acted immaturely in the loss against Jacksonville. As I mentioned in another thread, his antics were no worse than Michael Strahan's were with the Giants. I recall watching a game against Washington in 2002, in which Strahan was slamming his helmet against the bench because he had been held the previous series and was flagged 15 yards for yelling at the officials. Jim Fassel (very nice guy) was trying to calm him down in a similar way Staley was with Bosa. Ironically the Giants went on to the playoffs that year, were leading 38-14 late in the third quarter against the 49ers in the Wild Card round, and ended up losing 39-38. During that game Strahan was held sackless against Scott Gragg (he sucked) and had only two tackles. His most memorable moment in that game was running up to Terrell Owens following a 49ers touchdown and two-point conversion that cut the lead to 38-22 and saying, "Look at the scoreboard." Check the video out if you care to.

Strahan was 31 at the time. If this board had been around back then and he did this with the Chargers the members would be screaming for him to be traded. It turns out Strahan wasn't the problem. Fassel, as nice as he was, wasn't the right head coach. Tom Coughlin, in his first year as the Giants' head coach, fined Strahan for showing up to a team meeting on time instead of five minutes early. As stupid as the rule may sound, Strahan finally had a head coach who could discipline and give him direction. That's what this team really needs.

I'm not saying Bosa is a Hall of Fame talent in the same league as Strahan was. But the commonalities they possess are they are/were premium pass-rushers who actually gave a shit and were intense about winning. How in the world do you give up on that? You're going to trade him because of two stupid penalties in a playoff loss, and because he yelled at some idiot fans in a parking lot before watching his younger brother play?

Bosa missed most of the season and came back for the playoffs. Did anyone expect him to have six sacks in that game? Yes, he had two dumb penalties that were costly. Was he really the biggest problem this team had this season? And who exactly are you going to replace him with? Let's say you trade him to the Seahawks (where Uchenna Nwosu had the best season of his career...by far) for the 20th overall pick. Are you confident you'll be able to find a pass-rusher just as good as or better than Bosa in that spot or the second round? Are you willing to go into next season with Khalil Mack at 32 as your only veteran, experienced pass-rusher, especially when it very well could be Mack's last season with the Chargers?

As far as Derwin is concerned I think all of this talk about him hurting the team is bullshit, for reasons I already stated. We didn't play anybody in the three games the defense supposedly improved so much when he was absent, and in one of those games we gave up 166 rushing yards to a terrible Rams team, with Cam Akers leading the way with 123. I can't think of three better safeties in the NFL right now. He probably has more ability than any other safety in the NFL right now. I really don't see any good reason to get rid of him, especially with the possibility of starting Alohi Gilman and J.T. Woods. That is downright ridiculous.

[jubei]

Can you imagine a Chargers starting line up without Bosa and James ?

dont need to imagine that...it happened plenty this last season.

[Lefty2SLO]

It's unfair to say with Bosa. He was injured. If you want to complain that he's missed 30 games in seven years I have no issue with that, although it's not like he sat out with minor injures. They're part of the game, unfortunately, and we have seen others, such as Keenan (after missing 23 games in 2015 and 2016), come back and play full seasons for the majority of their careers.

Yes, Bosa acted immaturely in the loss against Jacksonville. As I mentioned in another thread, his antics were no worse than Michael Strahan's were with the Giants. I recall watching a game against Washington in 2002, in which Strahan was slamming his helmet against the bench because he had been held the previous series and was flagged 15 yards for yelling at the officials. Jim Fassel (very nice guy) was trying to calm him down in a similar way Staley was with Bosa. Ironically the Giants went on to the playoffs that year, were leading 38-14 late in the third quarter against the 49ers in the Wild Card round, and ended up losing 39-38. During that game Strahan was held sackless against Scott Gragg (he sucked) and had only two tackles. His most memorable moment in that game was running up to Terrell Owens following a 49ers touchdown and two-point conversion that cut the lead to 38-22 and saying, "Look at the scoreboard." Check the video out if you care to.

Strahan was 31 at the time. If this board had been around back then and he did this with the Chargers the members would be screaming for him to be traded. It turns out Strahan wasn't the problem. Fassel, as nice as he was, wasn't the right head coach. Tom Coughlin, in his first year as the Giants' head coach, fined Strahan for showing up to a team meeting on time instead of five minutes early. As stupid as the rule may sound, Strahan finally had a head coach who could discipline and give him direction. That's what this team really needs.

I'm not saying Bosa is a Hall of Fame talent in the same league as Strahan was. But the commonalities they possess are they are/were premium pass-rushers who actually gave a shit and were intense about winning. How in the world do you give up on that? You're going to trade him because of two stupid penalties in a playoff loss, and because he yelled at some idiot fans in a parking lot before watching his younger brother play?

Bosa missed most of the season and came back for the playoffs. Did anyone expect him to have six sacks in that game? Yes, he had two dumb penalties that were costly. Was he really the biggest problem this team had this season? And who exactly are you going to replace him with? Let's say you trade him to the Seahawks (where Uchenna Nwosu had the best season of his career...by far) for the 20th overall pick. Are you confident you'll be able to find a pass-rusher just as good as or better than Bosa in that spot or the second round? Are you willing to go into next season with Khalil Mack at 32 as your only veteran, experienced pass-rusher, especially when it very well could be Mack's last season with the Chargers?

As far as Derwin is concerned I think all of this talk about him hurting the team is bullshit, for reasons I already stated. We didn't play anybody in the three games the defense supposedly improved so much when he was absent, and in one of those games we gave up 166 rushing yards to a terrible Rams team, with Cam Akers leading the way with 123. I can't think of three better safeties in the NFL right now. He probably has more ability than any other safety in the NFL right now. I really don't see any good reason to get rid of him, especially with the possibility of starting Alohi Gilman and J.T. Woods. That is downright ridiculous.

So;

Bosa - so what I hear you saying is that all Joey needs is a coach that will provide discipline? A la Strahan? That's fine - let's get rid of Staley !!
James - Where are the game changing plays?

Look - I'm not saying either of your guys are bad players - far from it. My point is that neither one has lived up to the value of their contracts, both of which are currently limiting management's ability to improve the team. They're being paid elite money, but are NOT producing game changing or high impact results - that is THE problem. In a capped league stars MUST play like stars, and they have not done so.

[Lefty2SLO]

So;

Bosa - so what I hear you saying is that all Joey needs is a coach that will provide discipline? A la Strahan? That's fine - let's get rid of Staley !!
James - Where are the game changing plays?

Look - I'm not saying either of your guys are bad players - far from it. My point is that neither one has lived up to the value of their contracts, both of which are currently limiting management's ability to improve the team. They're being paid elite money, but are NOT producing game changing or high impact results - that is THE problem. In a capped league stars MUST play like stars, and they have not done so.

Jacksonville playoff game;

LAC / DJ: 100% def snaps 9 total tackles 0 sacks 0 ff 0 int 0 pass defended Contract value: 76,532,000 / 4 yrs
LAC / Gilman: 100% def snaps 5 total tackles 0 sacks 0 ff 0 int 1 pass defended Contract value: 3,483,204 / 4 yrs

JAX / Jenkins: 100% def snaps 7 total tackles 0 sacks 0 ff 0 int 1 pass defended Contract value: 35,000,000 / 4 yrs
Note; Horvath had more tackles than Bosa in this game :killme: It's seems clear (in hindsight) that Bosa was not 100%. He only played 51% of the defensive snaps and had 1 tackle.

1 game is certainly not an indicator of overall ability, but - when they were needed most, both guys came up woefully short.

[DerwinBosa]

So;

Bosa - so what I hear you saying is that all Joey needs is a coach that will provide discipline? A la Strahan? That's fine - let's get rid of Staley !!
James - Where are the game changing plays?

Look - I'm not saying either of your guys are bad players - far from it. My point is that neither one has lived up to the value of their contracts, both of which are currently limiting management's ability to improve the team. They're being paid elite money, but are NOT producing game changing or high impact results - that is THE problem. In a capped league stars MUST play like stars, and they have not done so.

Bosa had 1.5 sacks and a forced fumble in Week 1. He got injured in Week 3 and missed most of the rest of the season. Given the amount of time he missed, he probably wasn't close to a hundred percent for the playoff game. What kind of game-changing plays do you expect from an injured player?

I honestly don't know what the big disappointment is you see in Derwin James. Are you expecting him to suddenly turn into Ed Reed and pick off 10 passes? Other than having a career-high in sacks this year, this season was pretty much the same for him as 2021.

So...what's your solution? You want us to trade both of these guys? If so, who are the replacements? If you can guarantee me trading Bosa for a first-round pick in the twenties will lead to Telesco selecting the next Myles Garrett or Micah Parsons I will gladly change my username.

[DerwinBosa]

Jacksonville playoff game;

LAC / DJ: 100% def snaps 9 total tackles 0 sacks 0 ff 0 int 0 pass defended Contract value: 76,532,000 / 4 yrs
LAC / Gilman: 100% def snaps 5 total tackles 0 sacks 0 ff 0 int 1 pass defended Contract value: 3,483,204 / 4 yrs

JAX / Jenkins: 100% def snaps 7 total tackles 0 sacks 0 ff 0 int 1 pass defended Contract value: 35,000,000 / 4 yrs
Note; Horvath had more tackles than Bosa in this game :killme: It's seems clear (in hindsight) that Bosa was not 100%. He only played 51% of the defensive snaps and had 1 tackle.

1 game is certainly not an indicator of overall ability, but - when they were needed most, both guys came up woefully short.

Nick Bosa had four tackles in the loss against Philadelphia. He had one hit on the quarterback the entire postseason (three games). Should the 49ers not pay him?

Micah Parsons had only four tackles, with just one being solo, in the loss to the 49ers in the Divisional Round. Should the Cowboys entertain the idea of trading him?

[Lefty2SLO]

Nick Bosa had four tackles in the loss against Philadelphia. He had one hit on the quarterback the entire postseason (three games). Should the 49ers not pay him?

Micah Parsons had only four tackles, with just one being solo, in the loss to the 49ers in the Divisional Round. Should the Cowboys entertain the idea of trading him?

I said 1 game does not indicate either players overall ability. I get that cherry-picking stats works both ways. My angst with both of these guys is that when we need them to perform they haven't played up to their contracts. Pretty sure you can't say that about Nick Bosa and Parsons.

Until our best players play at a high level when it's most important they're not worthy of the contracts that are currently millstones around the team's neck. Bosa has a couple of issues. The main one is he can't stay healthy, and the 2nd is his immaturity. Derwin's harder to figure out, but we need a LOT more out of him for a guy with a $76 mil contract.

My solution; Look for a trade partner for Joey. Of the 5 guys with huge contracts he's the one (IN MY OPINION) that we need the least, and he's also young (ish). I have no idea what we could get for him with his injury history and latest antics. I'd kill for a 1st, but be satisfied with a 2nd + throw ins - maybe someone will be awed by his name and family reputation. Keep Van Noy and Mack one more year and look for a pass rusher in the draft (this year) and develop him. Derwin stays, with no contract gymnastics (at least for 23). I'm hoping that Staley finds a way to get more impact plays out of him - maybe keeping him in one position will help with that. For 76 mil I expect more than 7 picks in 50 games. Allen stays (one more year), and Williams stays. Allen and Mack MAY be candidates for kicking the can on their contracts. Accept the loss of Pipkins to FA (unless he gives the team a killer home town deal), Keep Tranq and Callahan with Pips $$$. Cut Feiler, Hopkins and the rest of the usual suspects.

If all the above goes down we'll need to prioritize pass rush, right tackle, speed receiver and ILB + IDL help in the late rounds. We'll also get Guyton back as speed depth, but we need more than 1 guy who can take the top off.

At the end of the day success in 23 will probably come down to 2 main things; 1) health, and 2) whether the coaching staff can enable the players be successful (go KM). Talent will be leaving - I can't see a scenario where we don't lose someone we'd really like to keep, but that's our reality (at least for this offseason).