Former OC Kellen Moore - Discussion

[rensoul]

Disagree. A receiver has to be covered regardless of whether they are fast or slow. Your “clamp down” expression is meaningless.

Yea sure, "clamp down," is meaningless. Go re-watch the 2nd half of the Jax playoff game and see their defense only have to defend 15-20 yards of the field without needing to fear anyone getting behind them.

It's so meaningless that the trend around the league is several teams going to two high safety shell coverages. Gee, I wonder why they are doing that?

Perhaps it's because after a decade of watching teams torch one high safety cover 1/3 coverages with speed trends change. Perhaps, it's really hard to consistently press man really fast players on an island without over the top safety help which what do you know? Opens up underneath space for possession players.

Possession players are valuable, putting them on the field alongside real speed helps loosen the coverage and create underneath space. That's basic football 101 stuff.

[sonorajim]

Speed kills - so they say.
Game planning, play calls, route execution, vision, hands are the 1st order of business in a successful passing offense.
Moore uses a lot of deception to get receivers open. Speed is a useful tool, no more, no less.

[Riverwalk]

Yea sure, "clamp down," is meaningless. Go re-watch the 2nd half of the Jax playoff game and see their defense only have to defend 15-20 yards of the field without needing to fear anyone getting behind them.

It's so meaningless that the trend around the league is several teams going to two high safety shell coverages. Gee, I wonder why they are doing that?

Perhaps it's because after a decade of watching teams torch one high safety cover 1/3 coverages with speed trends change. Perhaps, it's really hard to consistently press man really fast players on an island without over the top safety help which what do you know? Opens up underneath space for possession players.

Possession players are valuable, putting them on the field alongside real speed helps loosen the coverage and create underneath space. That's basic football 101 stuff.

IMO, that’s too simplistic and naive. Lack of a running game and pass blocking are at least as important or more than faster receivers. Herbert had no run game to rely on and no time to pass which is why receivers were running short routes.

I don’t think your conclusion that all we need is a faster receiver to juice the offense is as important as you think it is if pass and run blocking don’t improve.

[chargeroo]

I don't know a lot about Moore. I don't watch Cowboys games very often so I don't know what kind of offense he's been running in Dallas. However, I read an article where David Jeremiah was praising this hire. He thinks Moore and Herbert will really fit well together. If DJ thinks this is the right guy to lead our offense, I'll expect big things from the offense in the coming season.

[rensoul]

IMO, that’s too simplistic and naive. Lack of a running game and pass blocking are at least as important or more than faster receivers. Herbert had no run game to rely on and no time to pass which is why receivers were running short routes.

I don’t think your conclusion that all we need is a faster receiver to juice the offense is as important as you think it is if pass and run blocking don’t improve.

You're moving the goalposts. The topic was lack of speed in the WR room and now it's about the OL/running game. That's a whole different discussion I'm not willing to go down the rabbit hole with you on.

I'm just going to state the obvious. Speed is not the end all be all to the WR room, however if a WR room lacks a balance of possession WR's and real speed threats then it makes it a lot harder to attack all three levels of a defense.

That may be a simplistic and naive viewpoint in your eyes but it's been true at just about every level of football for maybe the last 50-60 years or so, maybe even longer. Good luck with your more "sophisticated," views on how speed doesn't matter in a WR room.

[Riverwalk]

You're moving the goalposts. The topic was lack of speed in the WR room and now it's about the OL/running game. That's a whole different discussion I'm not willing to go down the rabbit hole with you on.

I'm just going to state the obvious. Speed is not the end all be all to the WR room, however if a WR room lacks a balance of possession WR's and real speed threats then it makes it a lot harder to attack all three levels of a defense.

That may be a simplistic and naive viewpoint in your eyes but it's been true at just about every level of football for maybe the last 50-60 years or so, maybe even longer. Good luck with your more "sophisticated," views on how speed doesn't matter in a WR room.

I didn’t move the goalposts. I replied to the assertation that defenses “clampdown” on Chargers offense because there’s a lack of WR speed.

The flip side of that is a fast receiver will change that. I countered that without better pass and run blocking, that fast receiver won’t get much further than Keenan and Mike before Herbert has to chuck it.

[rensoul]

I didn’t move the goalposts. I replied to the assertation that defenses “clampdown” on Chargers offense because there’s a lack of WR speed.

The flip side of that is a fast receiver will change that. I countered that without better pass and run blocking, that fast receiver won’t get much further than Keenan and Mike before Herbert has to chuck it.

No, you did move the goalposts. I was talking about the WR group, and yea it doesn't take much thought to figure out better OL play helps any offense play better on any team in the pass or run game.

The WR group as a whole needs to be faster, you may not agree with me with little digs of calling my opinions meaningless, naive and simplistic while adding nothing of any substance to this topic, but
I think it's highly likely they will address the glaring lack of overall speed in the group in the draft or acquiring a player by other means because it's such an obvious need.

So let's wait and see if it gets addressed.

[dmac_bolt]

Disagree. A receiver has to be covered regardless of whether they are fast or slow. Your “clamp down” expression is meaningless.

Our theory is that if you have a blazer WR, that will keep Safeties back more and leave more underneath to 1x1 or zone. Zone can be beat by a smart receiver that knows how to find the gaps and seams. 1x1 is easier to beat when there isn’t a safety lurking on top of the route. Its our theory, we’d like to give it a try.

a fast receiver also can be more effective on mid-depth crossing routes as he can run away from his cover man. Hence he also needs the wiggle burst. Guyton lacks that - he’s fastest after 10 yards, not off the line. I watched the Zay Flowers tape, and , first noting he’s playing against DBs that won’t play on Sundays, he was able to run away from coverage time and time again. Then he had the shake to make other guys miss him for YAC. Highligh reels are just that, condensing 12 60-minute games into 20 minutes that never shows any of the bad must be taken with large grains of salt. Our receivers, it has to be noted, don’t have a lot of that wiggle we talk about - not a lot of YAC and its because of their skill set.

we don’t need 4 WRs that run sub 4.4, a great receiver is still much more than just 40 time. KA and MW show that every game (they play). but one burner would be nice and could change the dynamics of coverage some.

[Boltjolt]

Our theory is that if you have a blazer WR, that will keep Safeties back more and leave more underneath to 1x1 or zone. Zone can be beat by a smart receiver that knows how to find the gaps and seams. 1x1 is easier to beat when there isn’t a safety lurking on top of the route. Its our theory, we’d like to give it a try.

a fast receiver also can be more effective on mid-depth crossing routes as he can run away from his cover man. Hence he also needs the wiggle burst. Guyton lacks that - he’s fastest after 10 yards, not off the line. I watched the Zay Flowers tape, and , first noting he’s playing against DBs that won’t play on Sundays, he was able to run away from coverage time and time again. Then he had the shake to make other guys miss him for YAC. Highligh reels are just that, condensing 12 60-minute games into 20 minutes that never shows any of the bad must be taken with large grains of salt. Our receivers, it has to be noted, don’t have a lot of that wiggle we talk about - not a lot of YAC and its because of their skill set.

we don’t need 4 WRs that run sub 4.4, a great receiver is still much more than just 40 time. KA and MW show that every game (they play). but one burner would be nice and could change the dynamics of coverage some.

100% agree.
I really like Flowers but his size concerns me. And Downs.
Some might say Davonte Smith isn't big either and true. He is skinny and surprised he is holding up.
But he also isn't a YAC guy and getting hit more. But Flowers.....he is dynamic.
I like Hyatt, Addison, Tillman, . love Mims.

Not sold on Quintin Johnson yet.

[sonorajim]

I don't know a lot about Moore. I don't watch Cowboys games very often so I don't know what kind of offense he's been running in Dallas. However, I read an article where David Jeremiah was praising this hire. He thinks Moore and Herbert will really fit well together. If DJ thinks this is the right guy to lead our offense, I'll expect big things from the offense in the coming season.

Somebody on PBs posted a vid of Moore's Dal offense with commentary. I didn't find it. Sorry.
Good stuff. He adds a lot to the basic concepts Lombardi was using.
Expect better running, more scoring, particularly 3rd-4th quarters.

[Florida fan]

OK. Now I think you're saying the Chargers owners are NFL worst and Dallas are better. Worst is debatable, Dal better record is not.

Working with Staley and Herbert looks like an upgrade over McCarthy & Prescott. McCarthy is more desperate about his job than
Staley, who will give Moore full support and a great deal of freedom as OC and Prescott is good but not Herbert level.
Moore's Dal offense was very innovative and led the NFL in scoring in 2021.#5 in 2022. KM was good - very good at his job.

i truly hope your correct. Pollard it the better Rb. EZ will be gone and Dallas willl retain and build around Dak. So my hope is Moore was not best fit for Daks style and will align better with a passing QB.
On owners and HC, you will need several more seasons and P.O. wins to debate that.

[21&500]

100% agree.
I really like Flowers but his size concerns me. And Downs.
Some might say Davonte Smith isn't big either and true. He is skinny and surprised he is holding up.
But he also isn't a YAC guy and getting hit more. But Flowers.....he is dynamic.
I like Hyatt, Addison, Tillman, . love Mims.

Not sold on Quintin Johnson yet.

Steven from GAC podcast had a visceral reaction to watching Quintin Johnston, he said, "he's 6'4" and plays like he's 5'10"

Haha. I didn't notice that on his highlights, but I also haven't gotten deep into his tape.