Offensive Line Discussion

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  • Steve
    Administrator
    • Jun 2013
    • 6841
    • South Carolina
    • Meteorologist
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    Originally posted by Lone Bolt View Post

    I am glad you posted that little tidbit about arm length and tackle performance...however, there is one variable missing from his analysis that may skew the data a bit...he is analyzing tackles who have already won a job and are starting or playing significant snaps.You could argue that the short arm guys in that study are prospects who happen to have overcome their short arms with other traits...but we are examining unproven draft prospects. When we examine unproven (as far as pro play) prospects, we do have to look at all the traits, and weigh them in our decision on whether they will be successful. I would like to see a chart based on prospective draft prospects, and whether they become successful starters in the NFL...including the guys who never made it. To be fair, you may find a bunch of short arm guys in the trash bin...don't know for sure, just saying the study doesn't cover that possibility...meaning short arms may be an indicator...but even then, should not be the only factor considered.

    In any event, short arms are not a deal killer for me...just one of many things to consider. Gotta do your filmwork, and work the guy out to see how he does with the sum of his parts....physical size/lengths + athleticism + technique + strength
    Some issues with your critique.

    1
    ). A
    big bias is that there simply are not many people large and athletic enough to play OL in the NFL who don't have 33 inch arms. The sample size of the less than 33" arm crowd is probably not as big as you think just because most men large enough to be 300+ pounds and athletic are probably at least 6'3" or so, so most will have 33" arms already

    2
    ). The premise of the 33" arms is that there is a hard limit player ability to succeed without the arm length thing.
    In an ideal world, a single example of a person who has shorter arms disproves it.
    Same as it was for DE before that was debunked.

    3). To what degree are teams cutting street FA BECAUSE they have 33" arms and never giving them a chance?

    4). Most NFL players have reached their full height in college. If the arm length thing is not going to change much.

    5). Your point about looking at grades prior to being drafted by using the PFF grades from college has merit, but is somewhat flawed. They have only recently started doing those grades, so there is no body of work to look at. but to be really objective you would have to do a LOT of factors, especially the overall size and strength of the player, since that is not independent of arm length. Those types of statistical studies are very, very, very difficult to do.

    6). Objective methods might be better served for this study that a statistical regression. In fact is might be tough to do a statistical study on this one at all.

    We know in baseball and other sports, analytics was largely introduced to remove biases, not to introduce them.

    Also, it looks like he used excel to do the math, so you might want to consider the link below. That doesn't include the number of "hidden" flaws in the "experiment" where the person doing the number crunching doesn't set the experiment up correctly. Almost



    Comment

    • dmac_bolt
      Day Tripper
      • May 2019
      • 10514
      • North of the Lagoon
      • Send PM

      Originally posted by boldarblood View Post

      realistically you almost have to. But you need to supplement it with draft picks and possible FA. This is not an overnight fix, its going to take a few years.
      I sure hope not. Clean sweep would have better odds. And If i here synergy or continuity one time before the season, I’ll ... ok, I’ll laugh. Why would anyone want to continue what we saw last year.
      “Less is more? NO NO NO - MORE is MORE!”

      Comment

      • Steve
        Administrator
        • Jun 2013
        • 6841
        • South Carolina
        • Meteorologist
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        Originally posted by dmac_bolt View Post

        I sure hope not. Clean sweep would have better odds. And If i here synergy or continuity one time before the season, I’ll ... ok, I’ll laugh. Why would anyone want to continue what we saw last year.
        Again, the clean sweep method has been tried and tried again, and I can only think of two cases where it worked, and that when teams brought in players in mass. And one of those was when Shanny brought in the too small players in Denver, and that isn't likely to be repeated.

        Comment

        • Boltjolt
          Dont let the PBs fool ya
          • Jun 2013
          • 26780
          • Henderson, NV
          • Send PM

          Originally posted by Tol View Post

          While Wanogho is probably the most raw, since he comes from a basketball background, he may also have the highest ceiling.
          Having 33"+ arms means little to nothing in terms of OT performance. Having the speed to mirror bendy edge rushers is a lot more coveted.
          One scout says Jones is "such a long way off from being ready to see an NFL field." So that's why I prefer Jackson. If he beats out Tevi he starts, if not then he sits.
          But those are the 3 most likely Tackles to be on the board at the start of the 2nd.
          So you are drafting strictly for need there. I'm sure at 37 there will be a lot better players to choose from than Jackson.

          I get that we need a OT but I'd sure hate to miss out on some other good players for a guy that may not beat out Tevi. Upside sure but man we need an instant upgrade over Tevi.

          Comment

          • Lone Bolt
            Oline-Tip of the Spear...
            • Feb 2019
            • 4219
            • McLean Illinois
            • Pipefitter Illinois State University
            • Send PM

            Originally posted by Steve View Post

            I know the FA calculator on Sportrac says his market value (Conklin) is going to $15 mill. Maybe because of the injury thing, but he is going to be looking for Lane Johnson type money, and that is $18 mill per season. With the desperation on the OL, and the cap space teams have, I would be kinda surprised if he doesn't get it, or at least close.

            If you are the top FART in an OL poor league with lots of teams having tons of cap space and a rising salary cap the top salary cap value keep rising. Lane Johnson is getting $18 mill per season, his agent is going to start with that.

            Bring in more marginal players, but do it in bulk. Add the top players via the draft. Mid round draft players need to come in bulk too.

            Fixed it for you!! (giggle...)

            OK...sometimes I can be a 4th grader...:shrug:
            The TPB makes plans....And Jim Harbaugh laughs...

            Final prediction: Latham OT, Colson LB, Sainristil CB, Rice WR, Zinter OG, Nourzad OC, MacLachlan TE, Vidal RB, Lovett DT

            Comment

            • Lone Bolt
              Oline-Tip of the Spear...
              • Feb 2019
              • 4219
              • McLean Illinois
              • Pipefitter Illinois State University
              • Send PM

              Originally posted by Steve View Post

              Some issues with your critique.

              1
              ). A
              big bias is that there simply are not many people large and athletic enough to play OL in the NFL who don't have 33 inch arms. The sample size of the less than 33" arm crowd is probably not as big as you think just because most men large enough to be 300+ pounds and athletic are probably at least 6'3" or so, so most will have 33" arms already

              2
              ). The premise of the 33" arms is that there is a hard limit player ability to succeed without the arm length thing.
              In an ideal world, a single example of a person who has shorter arms disproves it.
              Same as it was for DE before that was debunked.

              3). To what degree are teams cutting street FA BECAUSE they have 33" arms and never giving them a chance?

              4). Most NFL players have reached their full height in college. If the arm length thing is not going to change much.

              5). Your point about looking at grades prior to being drafted by using the PFF grades from college has merit, but is somewhat flawed. They have only recently started doing those grades, so there is no body of work to look at. but to be really objective you would have to do a LOT of factors, especially the overall size and strength of the player, since that is not independent of arm length. Those types of statistical studies are very, very, very difficult to do.

              6). Objective methods might be better served for this study that a statistical regression. In fact is might be tough to do a statistical study on this one at all.

              We know in baseball and other sports, analytics was largely introduced to remove biases, not to introduce them.

              Also, it looks like he used excel to do the math, so you might want to consider the link below. That doesn't include the number of "hidden" flaws in the "experiment" where the person doing the number crunching doesn't set the experiment up correctly. Almost

              https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-excel-errors/
              Boy...and I was worried I was being too nit-picky...:biggrin:

              In the end...it's all about performance with the tools god gave you....thats all I was getting at.

              I brought a scientific method stick....you brought a bigger one...but in the end, I agree.
              The TPB makes plans....And Jim Harbaugh laughs...

              Final prediction: Latham OT, Colson LB, Sainristil CB, Rice WR, Zinter OG, Nourzad OC, MacLachlan TE, Vidal RB, Lovett DT

              Comment

              • blueman
                Registered Charger Fan
                • Jun 2013
                • 9193
                • Send PM

                TT dropped a pick on OLT last year, he’s gonna want to ride that out at least another year or two. They’ll either bring in a FA tackle and draft a guard, or vice versa, and roll with what they got. Two FAs would be surprising but not completely out there. And who knows for drafting those low round guys.

                Comment

                • like54ninjas
                  Registered Charger Fan
                  • Oct 2017
                  • 8211
                  • Great White North
                  • Draftnik
                  • Send PM

                  Originally posted by wu-dai clan View Post

                  Okung. Schofield. In.
                  Conklin. Becton. Out.

                  BTW I count 10, not 6/7.
                  We have other position groups to address
                  with draft capital and cap space.

                  Do not allow the pervasive Trenchers to poison your mind.

                  :coffee:
                  10 total Olinemen but 6/7 battling for 5 IOL roster spots.

                  Scho is below average. Why retain at probably $5-$8 million salary yearly?
                  Projecting Okung’s health going forward isn’t something I’m comfortable with. Do you expect his level play to continue at a high level with medicals, age, and 10 years of NFL wear & tear is a good TEAM decision?

                  Is it wise to continue to sign & pay for below average, declining players, with a serious medical histories?
                  Why not replace them both?
                  Okung’s CapHit versus signing Conklin will be a wash/or a 2020 Cap savings?
                  Would you rather have a declining 32 year old probowl OT or a 26 year old ALL-PRO OT?
                  That decision is easy for me.

                  Lets be smart, move on, and STOP REPEATING decisions that have proven to be ineffective. Definition of insanity!

                  My “GM” thoughts are always about TEAM performance.
                  TRENCHES are 9 of the 22 onfield positions. If you go back over the last few years, you’ll see that I’ve considered OT and DT as HUGE PONs.
                  We must improve the roster and Oline is part of that equation.
                  My question is why are your panties in a bunch over cutting Okung and replacing him? Is Okung or Pip the guaranteed long term answer at LOT?

                  We have an opportunity to dramatically improve a few positions via FA to limit PONs going into the draft. We can sign/extend our homegrown talent and a few key FAs this offseason. Contracts can be structured to take advantage of our incredible estimated Cap Space in 2021/beyond.

                  Think to the future wood not the past.

                  NEW HOME STADIUM
                  NEW QB
                  NEW/IMPROVED/INNOVATIVE/DYNAMIC BALANCED O
                  IMPROVED OLINE & SKILL POSITIONS
                  MORE PLAYMAKERS ON D

                  FOLLOW THE NINJA PLAN TO OUR FIRST OF MULTIPLE LOMBARDIS DURING THIS DECADE!

                  Last edited by like54ninjas; 02-01-2020, 04:20 PM. Reason: added the end
                  My 2021 Adopt-A-Bolt List

                  MikeDub
                  K9
                  Nasir
                  Tillery
                  Parham
                  Reed

                  Comment

                  • beachcomber
                    & ramblin' man
                    • Jan 2019
                    • 5039
                    • Send PM

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biGAhpTz5d4.... (almost two hours long)

                    RT Taliese Fuaga, DT Jer'Zhan Newton, NT T'Vondre Sweat, LB Cedric Gray, TE Ben Sinnott, RB Daijun Edwards, FS Cole Bishop, QB Joe Milton

                    Comment

                    • Boltnut
                      Registered Charger Fan
                      • Feb 2019
                      • 5732
                      • Send PM

                      Originally posted by beachcomber View Post
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biGAhpTz5d4.... (almost two hours long)

                      I listened to about 45 minutes... cuz I like Voch. He's right... Thomas is #1 and Wills is #2. After that, you start reaching...

                      Comment

                      • Steve
                        Administrator
                        • Jun 2013
                        • 6841
                        • South Carolina
                        • Meteorologist
                        • Send PM

                        Originally posted by like54ninjas View Post


                        Okung’s CapHit versus signing Conklin will be a wash/or a 2020 Cap savings?
                        Would you rather have a declining 32 year old probowl OT or a 26 year old ALL-PRO OT?
                        That decision is easy for me.

                        Of course you are assuming a couple of things.

                        1). Every team in the NFL who wants OL help is considering Conklin. He is the grand prize, so he may cost $20 mill per season. Teams have the cap space and the need is desperate. You have to wonder if people are being perhaps a tad optimistic that he wants to play for us.

                        2). You are assuming that he will continue to play on the same trajectory as before he got the big contract. History says you are probably wrong about that.

                        3). After we have signed Conklin, cut Okung, it will still end up being Pipkins and whoever we draft playing OT. And given the amount of money we will probably waste in doing so, there I no way we will be using the high picks on OT help if we draft premiere FA, so then we are back to the low round picks being thrown into action too soon and struggling.

                        Comment

                        • Bolt4Knob
                          Registered Charger Fan
                          • Dec 2019
                          • 12352
                          • Send PM

                          Originally posted by Steve View Post


                          Of course you are assuming a couple of things.

                          1). Every team in the NFL who wants OL help is considering Conklin. He is the grand prize, so he may cost $20 mill per season. Teams have the cap space and the need is desperate. You have to wonder if people are being perhaps a tad optimistic that he wants to play for us.

                          2). You are assuming that he will continue to play on the same trajectory as before he got the big contract. History says you are probably wrong about that.

                          3). After we have signed Conklin, cut Okung, it will still end up being Pipkins and whoever we draft playing OT. And given the amount of money we will probably waste in doing so, there I no way we will be using the high picks on OT help if we draft premiere FA, so then we are back to the low round picks being thrown into action too soon and struggling.
                          The Chargers can cut Okung - sign Conklin and still have plenty of money left to sign another OL because they have a lot of cap space - depending on QB.

                          And it doesn't have to be Conklin - it could be Glasnow - the big thing is just getting better players than Sam Tevi and Trent Scott.

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