2022 Official Bolts Draft Superthread

[dmac_bolt]

Johnson definitely was a key factor in the LV game. He created a turnover that led directly to a TD in a small margin game. Contrary to what QSmokey stated, I never stated that Johnson was "the key factor". I said he was "a key factor" in the loss. Though I hate the result, there can be no doubt that Johnson shoved it up our backsides pretty good by forcing that fumble in that game and further that he was a part of why we are sitting at home now (along with defensive issues, a missed FG, bad 4th down play calling by Lombardi from deep in our own end, et cetera). You cannot truthfully say that he was not a meaningful part of the story.

As for the rest, I challenged QSmokey's analysis. Why would I care about what Johnson did for other teams any more than the Palmer lovers care about what he did at Tennessee under circumstances that also do not resemble working with Herbert? When we know what a player can do and has done with Herbert, that is the best evidence, not evidence that he did not succeed playing for a butt fondling head coach who ended up (contrary to my expectation) being out of his depth in the NFL and with a gifted rookie QB who also struggled in the same bad environment.

FWIW, with greater exposure, such as 75-100 targets, I do not think there is any way that Johnson ends up producing at the same rate as he did in 2020. But this notion that Johnson somehow automatically would have been a nobody for us in 2021 when he absolutely kicked ass in 2020 in limited opportunities (which is beyond all reasonable dispute given the numbers I previously cited) makes no sense to me. I think the guy would have helped us in 2021, especially as it relates to the deep and very deep passing game, which was only so out of whack as to be discussed nationally by pundits as a major problem for us (the offense's version of our run defense made all the more incredible by virtue of us having arguably the game's best deep passer).

Of course, we can never know for sure, but it is crystal clear that Guyton only had two very deep ball receptions instead of the four he had in 2020 and that Johnson did not have his four as he was not on the team. Williams did not make up for the drop off either as he had multiple very deep pass receptions last year as well as this year. That part of the passing attack did take a hit. There can be no doubt about that. Also, when Guyton and Williams were out against HOU, it would have been really useful to have at least one legitimate deep passing attack threat. So not having Johnson hurt us in that game too.

Because of that, I am saying we need three very deep passing game threats at WR. One of the reasons I like Burks is that he is supposed to run sub-4.4, is big (like 6' 3" and 230 pounds), has good hands, is good in the air, and runs very well after the catch, including having one of the better stiff arms I have seen from a WR in some time. I am better than okay if the very deep receiving threat(s) that we add can also do other things. But the problem is that there are multiple team needs and WR is not the position of greatest need or even in the top 3.

I think Herbie could throw to anyone, i never said Tgoat wouldn’t have any receptions if he were able to get on the field and get open. I had just been laughing at your endless bleating that he was the difference in 2021 when not one other team in the league found a use for his receiving skills.

now im just confused as you seem to be claiming that his fluke fumble participation on one play as a gunner on ST proves your prior thesis of his receiving importance. Having trouble connecting those dots. I’d love if someone reposts that fumble as my impression at the time was it was a flat out muff by the PR and he had very little to do with other than just being there after the fact. I’d be happy to be corrected.

if this helps - I watched half of Q1 of the Bills-Pats replay early yesterday on NFL channel before I figured out I was watching the last reg season game and not the playoff. Everyone here should ponder this whenever they are thinking they agree with me. In fairness, i do currently have COVID … please no one worry, I’m already doing better and never had a serious health threat. It’s been a mild flu for me.

[dmac_bolt]

T

Short answer, no, he isn't. One-trick ponies - particularly the know-it-all-kind, like Yuba - never swerve from their unending crusade to be right. All. The. Time. And they will 'prove' it to you in overly long wind-bag post after overly long wind-bag post.

The fact of the matter is, Johnson didn't FORCE that fumble from from Roberts; he FELL on it. It wasn't a great play; he didn't deliver a big hit; or strip the ball away from Roberts. And he certainly wasn't a "key factor". He just happened to be at the right place at the right time. Had it not been Johnson, whoever the gunner was on that side of the field would have probably made the same play.

It's fun watching Yuba melt down every time he's challenged, however. Such an easy target.

Thanks, thats what i had thought but memory wasnt sure.

[jamrock]

I think Herbie could throw to anyone, i never said Tgoat wouldn’t have any receptions if he were able to get on the field and get open. I had just been laughing at your endless bleating that he was the difference in 2021 when not one other team in the league found a use for his receiving skills.

now im just confused as you seem to be claiming that his fluke fumble participation on one play as a gunner on ST proves your prior thesis of his receiving importance. Having trouble connecting those dots. I’d love if someone reposts that fumble as my impression at the time was it was a flat out muff by the PR and he had very little to do with other than just being there after the fact. I’d be happy to be corrected.

if this helps - I watched half of Q1 of the Bills-Pats replay early yesterday on NFL channel before I figured out I was watching the last reg season game and not the playoff. Everyone here should ponder this whenever they are thinking they agree with me. In fairness, i do currently have COVID … please no one worry, I’m already doing better and never had a serious health threat. It’s been a mild flu for me.

it wasn’t a muff. The ball was stripped. Pretty sure Ty was the guy that stripped it. Otherwise carry on

[Guest]

Short answer, no, he isn't. One-trick ponies - particularly the know-it-all-kind, like Yuba - never swerve from their unending crusade to be right. All. The. Time. And they will 'prove' it to you in overly long wind-bag post after overly long wind-bag post.

The fact of the matter is, Johnson didn't FORCE that fumble from from Roberts; he FELL on it. It wasn't a great play; he didn't deliver a big hit; or strip the ball away from Roberts. And he certainly wasn't a "key factor". He just happened to be at the right place at the right time. Had it not been Johnson, whoever the gunner was on that side of the field would have probably made the same play.

It's fun watching Yuba melt down every time he's challenged, however. Such an easy target.

https://www.raiders.com/video/cant-miss-play-raiders-special-teams-forces-bolts-fumble-nfl-week-18

Watch the video. Do not listen to the inaccurate commentary by the announcers. Johnson is #17. He knocks the ball loose. Divine Deablo recovers the fumble.

In fact, Johnson did deliver a big hit and did strip the ball away from Roberts.

By making that play, which led to a LV TD, Johnson was a key factor in the game.

It is okay to admit that you are wrong. I have been wrong plenty of times and I am sure I will be again. But I am right about this particular play.

[dmac_bolt]

https://www.raiders.com/video/cant-miss-play-raiders-special-teams-forces-bolts-fumble-nfl-week-18

Watch the video. Do not listen to the inaccurate commentary by the announcers. Johnson is #17. He knocks the ball loose. Divine Deablo recovers the fumble.

In fact, Johnson did deliver a big hit and did strip the ball away from Roberts.

By making that play, which led to a LV TD, Johnson was a key factor in the game.

It is okay to admit that you are wrong. I have been wrong plenty of times and I am sure I will be again. But I am right about this particular play.

Agree and disagree and thank you for the video. I said i didnt remember but am happy to agree that Tgoat deserves full credit for the fumble. But it wasn’t a big hit, I’m not sure from those angles he even hit the ball at all. He hit Roberts on the arm with an arm swipe, much as a returner gets hit on every return ever carried, and Roberts flat out barfed it up. But credit due - it was him.

so what. You never once argued early in the season about concern for losing Tbilly from punt return coverage. Not. Once. It’s 100% irrelevant to your season long Tgoat The Receiver campaign. It’s like for a year you argued that he was the greatest carpenter in the city yet not one other person would hire him to perform any carpentry anywhere. Then one day he bakes some cookies and you scream AHA - SEE!!!???

cookies are not cabinets. Punt coverage gunners are seldom, or can we affirm NEVER, great wide receivers? The greatest gunners in Charger history were wide receivers - notably lousy wide receivers.

[WindsorUK]

it wasn’t a muff. The ball was stripped. Pretty sure Ty was the guy that stripped it. Otherwise carry on

JamRock is 100% correct, as is ChainCrusher here- Johnson created the turnover, Diablo recovered it.

[Guest]

I think Herbie could throw to anyone, i never said Tgoat wouldn’t have any receptions if he were able to get on the field and get open. I had just been laughing at your endless bleating that he was the difference in 2021 when not one other team in the league found a use for his receiving skills.

now im just confused as you seem to be claiming that his fluke fumble participation on one play as a gunner on ST proves your prior thesis of his receiving importance. Having trouble connecting those dots. I’d love if someone reposts that fumble as my impression at the time was it was a flat out muff by the PR and he had very little to do with other than just being there after the fact. I’d be happy to be corrected.

if this helps - I watched half of Q1 of the Bills-Pats replay early yesterday on NFL channel before I figured out I was watching the last reg season game and not the playoff. Everyone here should ponder this whenever they are thinking they agree with me. In fairness, i do currently have COVID … please no one worry, I’m already doing better and never had a serious health threat. It’s been a mild flu for me.

I am glad that COVID has not affected you too badly and hope you have a full recovery soon.

In response to your post, I made two primary assertions in my previous post to QSmokey.

1. Johnson was a key factor in the loss to the Raiders. Johnson forced the Roberts fumble, which led directly to a LV TD. Points off of turnovers clearly matter in a close game. Johnson's play was huge for the Raiders. Here is the video that proves that Johnson forced the fumble (Johnson is #17):

https://www.raiders.com/video/cant-miss-play-raiders-special-teams-forces-bolts-fumble-nfl-week-18

2. QSmokey's focus on Johnson's stats this year with other teams represents a poor analytical approach in evaluating how Johnson would have fared with the Chargers this season. In his post, QSmokey focused on Johnson's stats this year for other teams, which seems like a poor way of thinking about it when we already know what Johnson can do when paired with Herbert. And, to be fair, QSmokey has not been the only poster to make this argument.

When Johnson and Herbert played together, the pairing worked. The gross production was limited because Johnson only had 26 targets in 12 games (20 receptions, 398 yards, 19.9 yards per reception, 3 TDs), but the targeting of Johnson produced the highest QB rating of any receiver regardless of position (WR, TE, RB) in the entire NFL in 2020. Clearly, Herbert and Johnson worked well together.

In my view, actual performance for our team is a better indicator of what Johnson would have done than his performance with other teams.

Regarding other points you raised, I agree that Herbert can make receivers look good. IMO, Herbert is the best QB in the NFL right now. In fact, I have recently borrowed from the Matrix in my posts and have said regarding Herbert that "he is the one" because he is. However, there is a difference between making a JAG receiver look good and a QB/WR combination producing the best QB efficiency in the entire NFL. Clearly, Johnson more than did his part as well.

Before the season began, I posited that our very deep passing game would take a hit because we cut Johnson. Our very deep passing game did take a hit this year as there were fewer completed very large air yards passes this year versus last year. I maintain that the absence of Johnson played a significant role in that result. I think the evidence on that point is fairly compelling. You, of course, are free to reach your own conclusion.

[Boltjolt]

Most Steeler fans felt Feiler was better at RT than G, so there is that. So saying he's strongest at LG may not be the case?
After watching Norton get run over by Crosby in the seasons deciding game, are we as Charger fans willing to cede the RT position to a rookie, when we have a proven veteran who can step right in?
Slater was GREAT this year, as many had hoped as a top pick. But it's got to be easier finding an LG in the 2nd-4th rounds than it is a T? And with the MASSIVE holes we have on D, we can only hope that whoever is making the decisions on draft day uses our top 3 picks to bring in players that can help that side of the football.

I'd take coaches takes about a guy moving to RT over fans.

This is mostly beach saying this here and it's because it gets his agenda of his guy in Zion Johnson. That's his main focus. Not that Fielder may be better at RT or not. It's about his guy. And then when we don't draft him he will be talking about it for years lol.

It's just his way. Not that it's an absolute bad idea. I just don't see us doing it.

We signed Fieler to play LG and if there was any inclination if playing him at RT, it hasn't been evident at all.

[Guest]

Agree and disagree and thank you for the video. I said i didnt remember but am happy to agree that Tgoat deserves full credit for the fumble. But it wasn’t a big hit, I’m not sure from those angles he even hit the ball at all. He hit Roberts on the arm with an arm swipe, much as a returner gets hit on every return ever carried, and Roberts flat out barfed it up. But credit due - it was him.

so what. You never once argued early in the season about concern for losing Tbilly from punt return coverage. Not. Once. It’s 100% irrelevant to your season long Tgoat The Receiver campaign. It’s like for a year you argued that he was the greatest carpenter in the city yet not one other person would hire him to perform any carpentry anywhere. Then one day he bakes some cookies and you scream AHA - SEE!!!???

cookies are not cabinets. Punt coverage gunners are seldom, or can we affirm NEVER, great wide receivers? The greatest gunners in Charger history were wide receivers - notably lousy wide receivers.

Okay. I guess there is an ambiguity that needs to be addressed right away. Since the original discussion was about Johnson being "a key factor" in the loss to the Raiders, when the words "big hit" were presented by QSmokey, I understood the words "big hit" to mean "important hit". I am not suggesting that Tyron Johnson channeled his inner Jack Tatum or Ronnie Lott on the play and made a crunching hit.

The "so what" is that the play by Johnson made Johnson "a key factor" in the loss to the Raiders. That is all I ever said about his impact on the loss to the Raiders.

And I did suggest before the season began that Johnson did have some special teams value. If I recall correctly, I believe I stated that he was a better return man and WR than K.J. Hill. That was part of the frustration involved with our keeping K.J. Hill over Johnson. Hill did nothing better than Johnson.

Regarding Johnson's likely value to us as a WR, I will refer you to my earlier post to you this morning (no reason to set forth that discussion again).

[jamrock]

I'd take coaches takes about a guy moving to RT over fans.

This is mostly beach saying this here and it's because it gets his agenda of his guy in Zion Johnson. That's his main focus. Not that Fielder may be better at RT or not. It's about his guy. And then when we don't draft him he will be talking about it for years lol.

It's just his way. Not that it's an absolute bad idea. I just don't see us doing it.

We signed Fieler to play LG and if there was any inclination if playing him at RT, it hasn't been evident at all.

We have a lot of problems but the left side of the OL is not one of the them. The Linsley/Feiler/Slater combo was a bright spot for us. Why would anyone mess with that? Resign Aboushi and find a RT. That’s it.

[gzubeck]

We have a lot of problems but the left side of the OL is not one of the them. The Linsley/Feiler/Slater combo was a bright spot for us. Why would anyone mess with that? Resign Aboushi and find a RT. That’s it.

and depth everywhere. need back-ups for injuries that always happens.

:2cents:

[TexanBeerlover]

and depth everywhere. need back-ups for injuries that always happens.

:2cents:

Or starters to replace starters who then become back-ups.