2020 Draft Prospect Discussion

[Boltjolt]

Keenan and MW combined missed 1 game last season...but we do just need more WRs

[Steve]

think you guys are just going for sexy w/Simmons....

we have a SS, he (Isaiah) isn't top shelf in run D, we went 1-4 upon Derwin's return, and Minny hung 39 on us ?? !!

and he can neutralize TEs.... what happened to the Drue Tranquill hype here ??

and 3+ WR sets.... why not draft CeeDee Lamb.... we have a pretty glaring need @WR3, not to mention an injury concern w/MW, and Keenan for that matter, and of whom is coming up for a mega contract soon, and....

we've thrown draft resources @WIL the last three drafts straight.... Jatavis, Kyzir and of last Tranquill ?? are we the Matt Millens of OLBs ??

and last and most important.... not only are there a coupla few near sure fire OT prospects @6, which is not a given year in and year out, let alone the likelihood that you will be high enough to draft one (we haven't been more oft than not)…. the (mostly forgotten) story is that our team wins w/a healthy/solid starting LT, and as evidenced by PR's higher QB rating w/Russell in good shape/form @LT.

no brainer in my book.... LT pls.... a WIL can wait.

You need to stop saying he isn't a top shelf run D player. He is an OUTSTANDING run defender. He is NOT a great point of attack player. That is NOT the same thing.

Derwin James is not a great point of attack player either, and he makes a lot of stuffs and tackles for a loss, on top of a lot of tackles. Jr Seau was not a great point of attack run defender, but not many people were able to run away from him. Plenty of a great defenders are not great at the point of attack, taking on and shedding blocks. That is why defenses scheme to free defenders up. Simmons is a guy who would need to scheme to free up to make it hard to block him. We did it with Seau, we can do it with Simmons.

Being a great point of attack defender means that they are going to have trouble in space. A few truly exceptional guys can do both, but most modern LB are going to struggle in space, and Simmons is one of the few who can go sideline to sideline and really play exceptionally well in space. So, all those zone toss plays that the 49ers threw at GB, that every OC in football is copying right now, plus all the matchups vs the KC speed, Simmons would be outstanding at defending any of those plays.

Drew Tranquill is a fine LB prospect. But he is never going to be the dominant player Simmons is. Lack of speed for one. Just about every true LB is a mismatch for any decent receiving TE. That is what makes Simmons so valuable. Tranquill can also play any LB, so I wouldn't pigeon hole him as being a Will. He played a fair amount at MIKE last year, which is more or less any LB who is going to play a major role is going to have to play anyway (dime). White was a bit of an experiment, and a 4th round pick, so it is not like these were sure fire picks trying to get him or either brown (5th round) or Tranquill 94th round). Maybe the real issue is we need to stop pissing away low round picks on the position to get our 1 every down guy with a QUALITY PICK, and get a QUALITY PLAYER. Besides that Brown is gone, he signed with the Eagles.

Again, you can argue we have a glaring need at Wr3, but we do already have Eckler, and he is very productive out of the slot. We have been using him there the last two season, and he has been very productive. What we need to do is add some more RB help, but we don't need to use top draft talent to do that. We can do that later, and target priority UDFA, and street FA RB. Just about every team has a solid RB who has excelled in the preseason who then gets cut. We just need to comb through all the cuts, and find someone who is worth something.

[wu-dai clan]

Steve, I project Simmons to MIKE/WILL/NLB.

Parham is a Big Slot, as far as WR#3 goes, along with Ekeler.

[Steve]

I don't think you worry about where he lines up in the base D. You can play him at Mike or WIll. You put the best LB not named Simmons on the field, plus either Nwosu or White at OTTO, since that is not a position that makes plays. An alternative is to mix in Perryman and Tranquill at LB based on who we play. Tranquill against more traditional, 3 Wr offenses, Perryman vs more smashmouth teams. Neither of them is all that special, but it doesn't mean they aren't solid players. THey just are not the kind of playmakers that a super productive guy like SImmons is.

As far as the dime package, I would have him as the only LB on the field. We have great secondary players, and LB are a mismatch for TE, RB or slot guys. People are thinking that he would make a great substitute for Phillips, playing the 3rd S spot and he would. But why not put King in the 3rd S spot with Harris as the 3rd CB and Simmons as the lone LB (mike)? Then the only other big hole to fill on D is 2nd CB.

As far as the type of run game that you are going to see a lot of, if you look at a lot of the coaching sites, everyone is excited about what the 49ers did. KC didn't do anything new this season that they didn't do the year before. They got some better personnel in Hardiman as the 3rd WR. BUt they just played better with the scheme they had. 49ers actually ran the ball down the throats of a pretty good run D in the Packers. The variety of different ways they attacked the edge is SCARY. I think you are going to see a lot of that zone toss stuff that GB had NO ANSWERS for. That is where I think Simmons would be OUTSTANDING. DO the toss or bunch crunch to get the ball in space, and see if you can outrun Simmons and James. I like our chances. Add in all the other RPO, jet sweep, zone read... all that stuff, plus all the passing are best stopped by having more and more speed on the field.

[beachcomber]

You need to stop saying he isn't a top shelf run D player. He is an OUTSTANDING run defender. He is NOT a great point of attack player. That is NOT the same thing.

Derwin James is not a great point of attack player either, and he makes a lot of stuffs and tackles for a loss, on top of a lot of tackles. Jr Seau was not a great point of attack run defender, but not many people were able to run away from him. Plenty of a great defenders are not great at the point of attack, taking on and shedding blocks. That is why defenses scheme to free defenders up. Simmons is a guy who would need to scheme to free up to make it hard to block him. We did it with Seau, we can do it with Simmons.

Being a great point of attack defender means that they are going to have trouble in space. A few truly exceptional guys can do both, but most modern LB are going to struggle in space, and Simmons is one of the few who can go sideline to sideline and really play exceptionally well in space. So, all those zone toss plays that the 49ers threw at GB, that every OC in football is copying right now, plus all the matchups vs the KC speed, Simmons would be outstanding at defending any of those plays.

Drew Tranquill is a fine LB prospect. But he is never going to be the dominant player Simmons is. Lack of speed for one. Just about every true LB is a mismatch for any decent receiving TE. That is what makes Simmons so valuable. Tranquill can also play any LB, so I wouldn't pigeon hole him as being a Will. He played a fair amount at MIKE last year, which is more or less any LB who is going to play a major role is going to have to play anyway (dime). White was a bit of an experiment, and a 4th round pick, so it is not like these were sure fire picks trying to get him or either brown (5th round) or Tranquill 94th round). Maybe the real issue is we need to stop pissing away low round picks on the position to get our 1 every down guy with a QUALITY PICK, and get a QUALITY PLAYER. Besides that Brown is gone, he signed with the Eagles.

Again, you can argue we have a glaring need at Wr3, but we do already have Eckler, and he is very productive out of the slot. We have been using him there the last two season, and he has been very productive. What we need to do is add some more RB help, but we don't need to use top draft talent to do that. We can do that later, and target priority UDFA, and street FA RB. Just about every team has a solid RB who has excelled in the preseason who then gets cut. We just need to comb through all the cuts, and find someone who is worth something.

disagree.... if you're a good run defender, do think you have to be a good point of attack defender, and would rather say that Simmons is a good defender and a good help defender against the run, albeit he is not the Denzel Perryman MLB eye want at the point of attack, and personally speaking.... we need one of those guys (not to mention a backup).

(will also add that not too many LBs are successful @taking on and shedding blocks, and more like Jr. and Denzel, they are better @slicing and/or knifing thru the line, and slipping in for the tackle).

and not claiming to know if Simmons has some Kuechly to him, albeit will admit to being surprised if he's any much of a starting MIKE, and yes.... eye get the nickel/dime suggestion, albeit again don't think that's quite the same when in base formation ??

and again personally won't have a problem w/Simmons talent wise or near bust proof @6, just don't think he is the optimum guy for us, as we have a near dire need for an OT, and have spent many draftnik years wincing in anguish at the fact that we were drafting too low to get a quality LT, and now.... they are staring us in the eye @6.

and agree again, that if there was a QB worth taking @6, then would be all about it over a tackle, albeit don't think that's the case, as am fairly convinced there are @least two real good options @OT in this draft, which will impact our win/loss column a whole heckuvah lot more than a WIL/Simmons.

and re: Tranquill…. want to see him @MIKE 'bout as much as eye enjoyed seeing Te'o there.... dude is a WIL that can play MIKE (in sub packages)

and of course I know Jatavis is gone, and will admit that am still bitter that we drafted Tranquill over Stidham....

also don't see how you and others here are so certain that a WIL @6 is the best use of draft capital, w/a (very) likely solid (Oline) pick sitting there @6 awaits us (albeit team TommyJohn has shown their propensity to fumble things w/linemen, and on both sides of the ball)

re: CeeDee…. am not so much lobbying for him, as am offering him in comparison to the overwhelming suggestion here to go sexy @LB/S w/Simmons, and when most downplay picking WR @6 cuz its just a sexy/luxury pick, and does not hold water in comparison to most cases here, QB.... or in some of our cases, OT ??

and guess the RB story is more of draft philosophy/strategy, as personally go thru and pick the players that strike me as Chargers, and then I slot them according to pundits boards, and of which this year has me leaning RB early, as don't see anyone later that holds a candle to the top shelf talent there, and.... given that we have a very large hole to fill there.

we can suffice w/later round RB/WR talent just as much as we can suffice w/later round LB/CB talent....

[beachcomber]

I don't think you worry about where he lines up in the base D. You can play him at Mike or WIll. You put the best LB not named Simmons on the field, plus either Nwosu or White at OTTO, since that is not a position that makes plays. An alternative is to mix in Perryman and Tranquill at LB based on who we play. Tranquill against more traditional, 3 Wr offenses, Perryman vs more smashmouth teams. Neither of them is all that special, but it doesn't mean they aren't solid players. THey just are not the kind of playmakers that a super productive guy like SImmons is.

As far as the dime package, I would have him as the only LB on the field. We have great secondary players, and LB are a mismatch for TE, RB or slot guys. People are thinking that he would make a great substitute for Phillips, playing the 3rd S spot and he would. But why not put King in the 3rd S spot with Harris as the 3rd CB and Simmons as the lone LB (mike)? Then the only other big hole to fill on D is 2nd CB.

As far as the type of run game that you are going to see a lot of, if you look at a lot of the coaching sites, everyone is excited about what the 49ers did. KC didn't do anything new this season that they didn't do the year before. They got some better personnel in Hardiman as the 3rd WR. BUt they just played better with the scheme they had. 49ers actually ran the ball down the throats of a pretty good run D in the Packers. The variety of different ways they attacked the edge is SCARY. I think you are going to see a lot of that zone toss stuff that GB had NO ANSWERS for. That is where I think Simmons would be OUTSTANDING. DO the toss or bunch crunch to get the ball in space, and see if you can outrun Simmons and James. I like our chances. Add in all the other RPO, jet sweep, zone read... all that stuff, plus all the passing are best stopped by having more and more speed on the field.

so your thought is that we are better off upgrading the WIL (MIKE in sub pkgs) position, and putting Vigil and the either or both of Denzel/Drue on the pine, and going w/Storm and/or another year of Scott ?? or is Jason Peters an imperative or.... ??

and even WR3.... Simmons adds more than CeeDee Lamb would ?? obviously you and most others here are convinced of the such.... myself, not so much ??

and a 2nd CB is gonna cost some draft capital, perhaps displacing a would be RB day two ?? defensive secondary is more important than Oline (OT & the OC) ??

have you given us a mock draft or a scenario that works for you considering needs and talent in the draft ??

[wu-dai clan]

I don't think you worry about where he lines up in the base D. You can play him at Mike or WIll. You put the best LB not named Simmons on the field, plus either Nwosu or White at OTTO, since that is not a position that makes plays. An alternative is to mix in Perryman and Tranquill at LB based on who we play. Tranquill against more traditional, 3 Wr offenses, Perryman vs more smashmouth teams. Neither of them is all that special, but it doesn't mean they aren't solid players. THey just are not the kind of playmakers that a super productive guy like SImmons is. This is what I have in mind. A player such as Simmons covers a lot of ground and a lot of positional needs, across different personel groupings.

As far as the dime package, I would have him as the only LB on the field. We have great secondary players, and LB are a mismatch for TE, RB or slot guys. People are thinking that he would make a great substitute for Phillips, playing the 3rd S spot and he would. But why not put King in the 3rd S spot with Harris as the 3rd CB and Simmons as the lone LB (mike)? Then the only other big hole to fill on D is 2nd CB.. I have labeled it as King at NLB#2. Derwin is SS creeping towards the LOS or staying back high in Tampa2 to Cover3. Jenkins up high, or Adderley. Adderley can play Boundary Corner or MDavis. Simmons on the Weakside, Derwin Strongside. That covers the entire football field. King wreaking havoc, jumping routes, blitzing. Adsditionally, I want more energy at DT. In Cover 3, the Front Four is so important !

As far as the type of run game that you are going to see a lot of, if you look at a lot of the coaching sites, everyone is excited about what the 49ers did. KC didn't do anything new this season that they didn't do the year before. They got some better personnel in Hardiman as the 3rd WR. BUt they just played better with the scheme they had. 49ers actually ran the ball down the throats of a pretty good run D in the Packers. The variety of different ways they attacked the edge is SCARY. I think you are going to see a lot of that zone toss stuff that GB had NO ANSWERS for. That is where I think Simmons would be OUTSTANDING. DO the toss or bunch crunch to get the ball in space, and see if you can outrun Simmons and James. I like our chances. Add in all the other RPO, jet sweep, zone read... all that stuff, plus all the passing are best stopped by having more and more speed on the field. I am seeing some dynamic mid round RBs, ones who look like Chargers.

It is time to get dialed in PON/BPA/Slotting.
We draft in 2 weeks.

[Steve]

disagree.... if you're a good run defender, do think you have to be a good point of attack defender, and would rather say that Simmons is a good defender and a good help defender against the run, albeit he is not the Denzel Perryman MLB eye want at the point of attack, and personally speaking.... we need one of those guys (not to mention a backup).

(will also add that not too many LBs are successful @taking on and shedding blocks, and more like Jr. and Denzel, they are better @slicing and/or knifing thru the line, and slipping in for the tackle).

and not claiming to know if Simmons has some Kuechly to him, albeit will admit to being surprised if he's any much of a starting MIKE, and yes.... eye get the nickel/dime suggestion, albeit again don't think that's quite the same when in base formation ??

and again personally won't have a problem w/Simmons talent wise or near bust proof @6, just don't think he is the optimum guy for us, as we have a near dire need for an OT, and have spent many draftnik years wincing in anguish at the fact that we were drafting too low to get a quality LT, and now.... they are staring us in the eye @6.

and agree again, that if there was a QB worth taking @6, then would be all about it over a tackle, albeit don't think that's the case, as am fairly convinced there are @least two real good options @OT in this draft, which will impact our win/loss column a whole heckuvah lot more than a WIL/Simmons.

and re: Tranquill…. want to see him @MIKE 'bout as much as eye enjoyed seeing Te'o there.... dude is a WIL that can play MIKE (in sub packages)

and of course I know Jatavis is gone, and will admit that am still bitter that we drafted Tranquill over Stidham....

also don't see how you and others here are so certain that a WIL @6 is the best use of draft capital, w/a (very) likely solid (Oline) pick sitting there @6 awaits us (albeit team TommyJohn has shown their propensity to fumble things w/linemen, and on both sides of the ball)

re: CeeDee…. am not so much lobbying for him, as am offering him in comparison to the overwhelming suggestion here to go sexy @LB/S w/Simmons, and when most downplay picking WR @6 cuz its just a sexy/luxury pick, and does not hold water in comparison to most cases here, QB.... or in some of our cases, OT ??

and guess the RB story is more of draft philosophy/strategy, as personally go thru and pick the players that strike me as Chargers, and then I slot them according to pundits boards, and of which this year has me leaning RB early, as don't see anyone later that holds a candle to the top shelf talent there, and.... given that we have a very large hole to fill there.

we can suffice w/later round RB/WR talent just as much as we can suffice w/later round LB/CB talent....

So you are assaying that Jr, Ray Lewis, Troy Polumalu, Zach Thomas, Jack Lambert, Jack Ham, Willie Lanier, Mike Singletary, Dave Robinson, Lawrence Taylor, Urlacher … (the list goes on, and on) were all bad run defenders???? All of those players are run and hit type, not guys who take and and shed blocker types. In fact, if you look at the pro bowl/hall of fame lists, since 1970, almost EVERYBODY who is a elite player, which is what a 6th pick in the draft should be, is NOT a point of attack guy. You can get guys who plug gaps much later on in the draft


The other players in the front 7 will have to be the point of attack guys. The DL and other LB will have to take on and shed, and control the blockers. That is just how we used to use Seau. It IS how most NFL defenses use their best LB. Let him run to the ball, with the other front players aligned to covering up the blockers, so that Seau didn't HAVE to take on blocks. Again, if so many of the players on the list above are elite players, then allowing Simmons to be that guy for us would work too.

The problem I have with the idea of taking OL with the 1st pick is this: If we pass on Simmons, there isn't going to be a guy like him in next years draft. Hell, there isn't someone like him in the history of the NFL. We can't get someone like him again. It is this year or bust. We can draft a LB (in later rounds or next year), but there is none of them who are anything like the coverage ability, speed, ability to run down plays in space, or blitzing ability like Simmons has. We can fill the spot, but any LB we sign is not going to be anywhere near the player Simmons is. The differential between him and everyone else is HUGE.

There are good OL in every draft. I like the top of the OL class, but there is no player who is any better than anyone in any other draft (more or less). Same with Jeff Okudah, who is a very, very good CB, but similar to the top CB in every draft. Plus, I think we can get a starting caliber Cb in day 2 (there are plenty of very good zone cb).

From watching last season, the way they moved people around and such, I am not sure we make a distinction between the two ILB spots. In the preseason, they said Richard Smith, the LB coach asked all the LB to know all 3 positions. Ultimately, in the end, it is about getting the best players on the field, and guys like Perryman and Tranquill, are good guys, but they aren't worth worrying about. If we have them and they play better than last year, fine. Simmons is the kind of guy who can be special, which neither of the other two are.

As far as RB go, plenty of teams have gotten good to great performances from young RB who are mid to late round RB. Only 3 or 4 (depending on how you count) RB in the entire division right now are drafted. Of them Melvin was not drafted by Denver, so he is the one that changes the count. All the rest are either street FA or college FA. 2 of the 4 teams best RB is a college FA (Ekeler and Lindsay). There is no real need to draft a RB at all really, but if we decide to pick on late, we can probably still get some good ones, along with some college FA.

LAC- Jackson (7th of 2018)
Raiders drafted Josh Jones (1st of 2019)
Denver has Royce Freeman (3rd of 2018) - although there is rumor they may cut him, Melvin (1st of 2015) - although he is a FA for them.
KC has Darwin Thompson (6th in 2019)

As far as WR, there should be some good WR dropping in this draft. I expect that it is going to be like DB did in 2017, where DB like Desmond King were falling into the 5th and 6th round. This year is will be WR, just because it is such a deep draft group, but with so many colleges play 3 and 4WR so much of the time, these will be deep groups most seasons from now till that changes.

[wu-dai clan]

Gaining confidence in woodMock v6...coming soon.

[Steve]

so your thought is that we are better off upgrading the WIL (MIKE in sub pkgs) position, and putting Vigil and the either or both of Denzel/Drue on the pine, and going w/Storm and/or another year of Scott ?? or is Jason Peters an imperative or.... ??

and even WR3.... Simmons adds more than CeeDee Lamb would ?? obviously you and most others here are convinced of the such.... myself, not so much ??

and a 2nd CB is gonna cost some draft capital, perhaps displacing a would be RB day two ?? defensive secondary is more important than Oline (OT & the OC) ??

have you given us a mock draft or a scenario that works for you considering needs and talent in the draft ??

Vigil got backup money, so I have no problem with him as a backup. He is being paid to be a ST guy who can play some LB, and he is slotted as such. if he has to play, he isn't that much of a drop off from the guys we have, and he can be an asset as a goalline and short-yardage guy. Maybe after writing this I should call him a role player, rather than a backup. In either case, if he is going to be on the field much, something is very wrong.

Drue and Denzel are both playing OK, and both can play in the base D. Neither is good enough to be a every down LB. I am fine with them as the starters, but they have to realize they need to improve. Denzel also has to stay healthy, and he didn't play very well last season. If we can't draft Simmons because someone else takes him, fine, but neither of them is so good I would worry about them getting their feelings hurt. Still, LB is not the impact position it used to be when teams lined up base offense on 1st and 2nd down, and ran the ball 40 times a game.

I would draft BPA. We need good players at every position group on the team, so I wouldn't worry about it. You didn't mention QB, and there is a good chance we NEED a QB. frankly, I think we can live with the guys we have, but want to add people everywhere. I am fine with Pipkins playing OT, because, like PFF, I think he performed alright, and both he and Tevi have shown significant improvement in footwork and balance, and I expect that to continue somewhat.

As far as mock drafts, I don't really see the point. Unless you think you have a realistic shot at simulating what all 32 teams are doing, you don't really know who is available. I know who I like and how I have them graded, but unless you can compare all the available guys, the deciding factor for who is a good pick is usually how much you fill a need, and as I already pointed out I think going BPA is the way to go, regardless of position.

[like54ninjas]

think you guys are just going for sexy w/Simmons....

we have a SS, he (Isaiah) isn't top shelf in run D, we went 1-4 upon Derwin's return, and Minny hung 39 on us ?? !!

and he can neutralize TEs.... what happened to the Drue Tranquill hype here ??

and 3+ WR sets.... why not draft CeeDee Lamb.... we have a pretty glaring need @WR3, not to mention an injury concern w/MW, and Keenan for that matter, and of whom is coming up for a mega contract soon, and....

we've thrown draft resources @WIL the last three drafts straight.... Jatavis, Kyzir and of last Tranquill ?? are we the Matt Millens of OLBs ??

and last and most important.... not only are there a coupla few near sure fire OT prospects @6, which is not a given year in and year out, let alone the likelihood that you will be high enough to draft one (we haven't been more oft than not)…. the (mostly forgotten) story is that our team wins w/a healthy/solid starting LT, and as evidenced by PR's higher QB rating w/Russell in good shape/form @LT.

no brainer in my book.... LT pls.... a WIL can wait.

What are Simmon’s run game deficiencies you see?
Why do you say we have a SS? He is a 240# beast. He cannot play LB in the NFL? Is he a WIL only? Can he play MIKE? Why not?

Jatavis was drafted 4 years ago. Kyzir is no longer playing WIL. Tranquil played almost exclusively MIKE this past season. Where are you getting your info on our players?

Why not WR at #6? Because there are about 15 WR in the top 75 prospects. Why waste the draft capital?

OT is PON and the top talents are worthy of a top 10 pick. One thing we are agree upon.

[blueman]

I thought LB was EXACTLY the position you pissed away low round picks on, cuz part time no-big-play guy. Wonder where I got that stuck in my head.