2020 Draft Prospect Discussion

[dmac_bolt]

I thought LB was EXACTLY the position you pissed away low round picks on, cuz part time no-big-play guy. Wonder where I got that stuck in my head.

I read that somewhere too. Can’t recall ...

[beachcomber]

What are Simmon’s run game deficiencies you see?
Why do you say we have a SS? He is a 240# beast. He cannot play LB in the NFL? Is he a WIL only? Can he play MIKE? Why not?

Jatavis was drafted 4 years ago. Kyzir is no longer playing WIL. Tranquil played almost exclusively MIKE this past season. Where are you getting your info on our players?

Why not WR at #6? Because there are about 15 WR in the top 75 prospects. Why waste the draft capital?

OT is PON and the top talents are worthy of a top 10 pick. One thing we are agree upon.

we've got a full house in the secondary/back seven.... Hayward, Harris, Desmond, Derwin, Rayshawn, Nasir, and now Isaiah

and am no Simmons expert, let alone aficionado, and.... dude is primarily known for his coverage and blitzing ability, and yes.... he can play the run, albeit am not so inclined to believe he is a force in that department, and yes he can play MIKE in sub packages, and agree he can be on the field for all downs, and.... given the above, how much mud do we need to throw on the wall (@LB/S), and at the expense of the rest of the roster ??

and no, don't think he's ideal as a starting base pkg MIKE.... do you ?? and do you put Derwin somewhere else and let Simmons play SS ?? is his best position not WIL ??

and my info is just that.... we've thrown quite a few draft picks at the LB/S position.... Rayshawn isn't far off that either.

agree that Simmons may be hellah good, and.... just don't see the add adding as much to the win column as one of the top flight OTs.

and unlike you, not as enamored by the other receivers in comparison to Lamb, and.... still leaning heavily toward Oline early rather than wideout.

for myself, the bpa is the player that most improves your team's win/loss record.... my sense is that is not Simmons.

[blueman]

I dunno beachy, who would impact Ws more then at 6? Only elite players need apply.

[beachcomber]

So you are assaying that Jr, Ray Lewis, Troy Polumalu, Zach Thomas, Jack Lambert, Jack Ham, Willie Lanier, Mike Singletary, Dave Robinson, Lawrence Taylor, Urlacher … (the list goes on, and on) were all bad run defenders???? All of those players are run and hit type, not guys who take and and shed blocker types. In fact, if you look at the pro bowl/hall of fame lists, since 1970, almost EVERYBODY who is a elite player, which is what a 6th pick in the draft should be, is NOT a point of attack guy. You can get guys who plug gaps much later on in the draft


The other players in the front 7 will have to be the point of attack guys. The DL and other LB will have to take on and shed, and control the blockers. That is just how we used to use Seau. It IS how most NFL defenses use their best LB. Let him run to the ball, with the other front players aligned to covering up the blockers, so that Seau didn't HAVE to take on blocks. Again, if so many of the players on the list above are elite players, then allowing Simmons to be that guy for us would work too.

The problem I have with the idea of taking OL with the 1st pick is this: If we pass on Simmons, there isn't going to be a guy like him in next years draft. Hell, there isn't someone like him in the history of the NFL. We can't get someone like him again. It is this year or bust. We can draft a LB (in later rounds or next year), but there is none of them who are anything like the coverage ability, speed, ability to run down plays in space, or blitzing ability like Simmons has. We can fill the spot, but any LB we sign is not going to be anywhere near the player Simmons is. The differential between him and everyone else is HUGE.

There are good OL in every draft. I like the top of the OL class, but there is no player who is any better than anyone in any other draft (more or less). Same with Jeff Okudah, who is a very, very good CB, but similar to the top CB in every draft. Plus, I think we can get a starting caliber Cb in day 2 (there are plenty of very good zone cb).

From watching last season, the way they moved people around and such, I am not sure we make a distinction between the two ILB spots. In the preseason, they said Richard Smith, the LB coach asked all the LB to know all 3 positions. Ultimately, in the end, it is about getting the best players on the field, and guys like Perryman and Tranquill, are good guys, but they aren't worth worrying about. If we have them and they play better than last year, fine. Simmons is the kind of guy who can be special, which neither of the other two are.

As far as RB go, plenty of teams have gotten good to great performances from young RB who are mid to late round RB. Only 3 or 4 (depending on how you count) RB in the entire division right now are drafted. Of them Melvin was not drafted by Denver, so he is the one that changes the count. All the rest are either street FA or college FA. 2 of the 4 teams best RB is a college FA (Ekeler and Lindsay). There is no real need to draft a RB at all really, but if we decide to pick on late, we can probably still get some good ones, along with some college FA.

LAC- Jackson (7th of 2018)
Raiders drafted Josh Jones (1st of 2019)
Denver has Royce Freeman (3rd of 2018) - although there is rumor they may cut him, Melvin (1st of 2015) - although he is a FA for them.
KC has Darwin Thompson (6th in 2019)

As far as WR, there should be some good WR dropping in this draft. I expect that it is going to be like DB did in 2017, where DB like Desmond King were falling into the 5th and 6th round. This year is will be WR, just because it is such a deep draft group, but with so many colleges play 3 and 4WR so much of the time, these will be deep groups most seasons from now till that changes.

pardon my lack of familiarity w/proper nomenclature, as gotta believe that not too many RBs wanted to square off w/the likes of Lambert, Singletary, Urlacher, etc.... as my (vantage) point is that I like having a guy that can stand people up and does not give up ground when meeting a ball carrier head on.... on this team, that player is Denzel.

Takeo was prolly an extreme and the other end of the spectrum from what eye take to be your preferred (modern) LB of choice, and.... that's cool, and in no way am eye going to claim to be the guy that is anywhere close to omni prescient when it comes to soothsaying who that might best be.... just personal preference at this point, as didn't like Te'o @MLB, and don't like the idea of Drue or Vigil for that matter @MIKE.

and will offer that the MLB for Atlanta was someone eye didn't think would amount to much, and apparently he is a rock solid ILB for them ?? (Jones ?)

also recall the tall (6'4") LB from Ohio State (for us) awhile back that seemed that was all he did was take on blocks.... don't like that as our primary D.... not an expert here, and gotta believe we can scheme better than that ??

and that was the biggest problem/deficiency w/our D last year, and for years before that.... was our insistence that we were good w/Mebane or like on the IDL.... guaranteed that Isaiah would not fare so well w/the regularity of OGs popping free into the second level w/our IDLs of late.... as mentioned, Linval is gonna help.

and disagree w/the notion that Simmons is a once in a lifetime talent.... sounds like peoples talking 'bout Jeaux and Tua…. just not the case.

and despite your diatribe, know you know that we have missed out on Oline time and again cuz we were drafting too low.... it's frustrating, and now we are square in sight of a top flight OT.

and ditto for QB.... if you are dead sure that one of 'em are gonna be a bona fide starting/franchise QB.... I'm not, and am under the impression you feel of a similar vein ??

also don't agree w/the RB sampling.... there have been plenty of top o' the first RBs that have panned out, and yes.... Ekeler is a great find, and JJ tantalizes from the bottom of the draft, and.... all due respect to them and many others.... will gladly take my chances w/Swift as compared to most anyone else in this draft.... ditto for Lamb.

basically am taking your stance as that Simmons is just too good to pass on, and that an Oline or otherwise will not hold a candle to the value that Isaiah represents/offers ?? sorry.... still don't buy it.

would much rather ante up for a Wirfs/Andrew Thomas rather than a Derwin++

[beachcomber]

Vigil got backup money, so I have no problem with him as a backup. He is being paid to be a ST guy who can play some LB, and he is slotted as such. if he has to play, he isn't that much of a drop off from the guys we have, and he can be an asset as a goalline and short-yardage guy. Maybe after writing this I should call him a role player, rather than a backup. In either case, if he is going to be on the field much, something is very wrong.

Drue and Denzel are both playing OK, and both can play in the base D. Neither is good enough to be a every down LB. I am fine with them as the starters, but they have to realize they need to improve. Denzel also has to stay healthy, and he didn't play very well last season. If we can't draft Simmons because someone else takes him, fine, but neither of them is so good I would worry about them getting their feelings hurt. Still, LB is not the impact position it used to be when teams lined up base offense on 1st and 2nd down, and ran the ball 40 times a game.

I would draft BPA. We need good players at every position group on the team, so I wouldn't worry about it. You didn't mention QB, and there is a good chance we NEED a QB. frankly, I think we can live with the guys we have, but want to add people everywhere. I am fine with Pipkins playing OT, because, like PFF, I think he performed alright, and both he and Tevi have shown significant improvement in footwork and balance, and I expect that to continue somewhat.

As far as mock drafts, I don't really see the point. Unless you think you have a realistic shot at simulating what all 32 teams are doing, you don't really know who is available. I know who I like and how I have them graded, but unless you can compare all the available guys, the deciding factor for who is a good pick is usually how much you fill a need, and as I already pointed out I think going BPA is the way to go, regardless of position.

so is LB bpa for you this draft ??

and you don't want to add a QB ?? you're ok w/Stick in there if Tyrod falters somehow ??

and you're good w/Pipkins, Tevi (and/or Lamp ?) all starting on the Oline ?? (what about Feeney, Qberry ?) ….part of me would like to see that to show the PR mudslingers how it is to play behind a line like that.

and gotta say am on the tired side when I read that Denzel didn't play very well last season.... when was the last time he had a legit IDL in front of him.... where was Tillery ranked again, and how much did Brandon have in the tank the last coupla few years ??

just like peoples say Philip didn't play very well last season.... we all know how he woulda, coulda, shoulda played given that he had a healthy Okung 'n Pouncey in front of him.

and back to Isaiah.... wasn't JJ Watt a generational player and then some ?? and how has his team's win/loss column fared w/him @the helm ??

peoples had their bigtime Derwin crush, now they have their supernova Jeaux and/or Isaiah football/man crush goin'.... there will be other players.

will still gladly take Ramczyk over MW, Erik McCoy over Tillery, Stidham over Tranquill, etc.... Simmons is very unlikely not to bust and is not a bad pick, just don't think he is the optimum pick @6.

this is a telling year (as most always) for this org.... somehow/someway/sometime we need to change our draft strategy and roster build mechanics, as our lack of success is intrinsic to the process.

sexy/skill players or the ill begotten trenchers ?? we need to steer clear of injury histories, focus on the trenches, and not bust.... (that is Simmons btw, and.... you've read my rant

[beachcomber]

I dunno beachy, who would impact Ws more then at 6? Only elite players need apply.

not sure who numero uno is, and.... pretty sure it is one of these guys +Jeaux & Chase:

Simmons (believe it or not he was in my original set of clusters @the start of draft season)
Wirfs/AT
Derrick B.
CeeDee
Swift
Fromm

(who's #10 ?)

[Steve]

pardon my lack of familiarity w/proper nomenclature, as gotta believe that not too many RBs wanted to square off w/the likes of Lambert, Singletary, Urlacher, etc.... as my (vantage) point is that I like having a guy that can stand people up and does not give up ground when meeting a ball carrier head on.... on this team, that player is Denzel.

Takeo was prolly an extreme and the other end of the spectrum from what eye take to be your preferred (modern) LB of choice, and.... that's cool, and in no way am eye going to claim to be the guy that is anywhere close to omni prescient when it comes to soothsaying who that might best be.... just personal preference at this point, as didn't like Te'o @MLB, and don't like the idea of Drue or Vigil for that matter @MIKE.

and will offer that the MLB for Atlanta was someone eye didn't think would amount to much, and apparently he is a rock solid ILB for them ?? (Jones ?)

also recall the tall (6'4") LB from Ohio State (for us) awhile back that seemed that was all he did was take on blocks.... don't like that as our primary D.... not an expert here, and gotta believe we can scheme better than that ??

and that was the biggest problem/deficiency w/our D last year, and for years before that.... was our insistence that we were good w/Mebane or like on the IDL.... guaranteed that Isaiah would not fare so well w/the regularity of OGs popping free into the second level w/our IDLs of late.... as mentioned, Linval is gonna help.

and disagree w/the notion that Simmons is a once in a lifetime talent.... sounds like peoples talking 'bout Jeaux and Tua…. just not the case.

and despite your diatribe, know you know that we have missed out on Oline time and again cuz we were drafting too low.... it's frustrating, and now we are square in sight of a top flight OT.

and ditto for QB.... if you are dead sure that one of 'em are gonna be a bona fide starting/franchise QB.... I'm not, and am under the impression you feel of a similar vein ??

also don't agree w/the RB sampling.... there have been plenty of top o' the first RBs that have panned out, and yes.... Ekeler is a great find, and JJ tantalizes from the bottom of the draft, and.... all due respect to them and many others.... will gladly take my chances w/Swift as compared to most anyone else in this draft.... ditto for Lamb.

basically am taking your stance as that Simmons is just too good to pass on, and that an Oline or otherwise will not hold a candle to the value that Isaiah represents/offers ?? sorry.... still don't buy it.

would much rather ante up for a Wirfs/Andrew Thomas rather than a Derwin++

I don't know what the hell you are talking about anymore. Not sure I ever really did.

Point of attack players are the ones who take on and shed BLOCKERS. Someone HAS to do that on EVERY play. That is what defense is all about. The offense tries and block the defenders, the defenders shed the blocks and tackle. That's it. That's playing run defense.

Again, all those hall of fame LB are guys who did NOT take on blocks, but were guys who ran to the ball and tackled. That is what makes them special. Guys like Vigil or Tranquill or Perryman no matter how much you cover them up, are not fast and explosive enough to make [plays sideline to sideline, running guys down all over the field. That is the shit that gets people nominated for the hall of fame, and the others, while being solid players might, might eventually be boarderline pro bowl players.

If you are saying that Simmons is the type of player who can't tackle because he is too soft or something, you need to go back and watch him play. He has no issues there. He is an excellent tackler. Open field, inside, outside. He is not the kind of player who tries to deliver knockout blows on every single hit, but he tackles well and fairly hard on. The guys who go for knockout hits, for the most part, tend to miss too much, and the rules are cracking down on them anyway.

Takeo Spikes was a run stuffing MLB at the end of his career, but no one is really playing guys like him at LB anymore. NE has a few of them, but they are used pretty sparingly. I don't know why you are bringing them up. In todays game, he would be a part time player, brought in to play specialty run D when the other team goes heavy personnel. Simmons, being a run and hit LB who can cover a ton of ground is the type of LB every team needs one of. He is a true sideline to sideline player.

You are way too hung up on the idea of mike vs will LB. If you were playing base I am not a fan of playing base D LB much at all. When the offense brings out base personnel (2 TE, or 2 RB formations), then we can afford to go nickel or maybe base personnel on D. In goal personnel, it might make some difference.

For the most part, teams are trying to spread us out and run into the spaces. Simmons makes the field smaller because of his speed. The same way our DB make the field smaller when we play dime Dline/shortyardage D, we may pull a DB in favor of a LB (in which case Simmons would be outstanding by the way). But for the most part we need a LB who can play in the dime D, because that is the alignment that we will probably be in around 70% of our defensive snaps. NFL average is offenses will play 3 (or more) WR 64%, some playing much more. KC plays that, but spends a lot of time in 2 TE and 2 RB one they get a lead and are running the clock down.
.
You can make the OL argument at ANY position. You need good players across the board. NFL teams will find weakness and exploit them.

We have a chance to put together the type of D that can compensate for other shortcomings. We are not going to have a doiminant offense even if we draft several OL. We will still be reacting to other teams moves, instead of forcing them to react to one of our units.

As far as RB, it has always been this way. Top notch RB are not worth the draft capital and/or salary that other positions are. They are slightly better players than the RB you find later in the draft, or as college FA. But mostly a RB production is going to be set by the rest of the offensive players blocking for him. Top draft capital/FA signings are simply not worth that much more than the bottom tier guys. There are plenty of examples of guys who were backups, got trust into the starting role, and got their 1200 yards rushing because they simply got enough carries and could sustain an offense. There are plenty of cases top notch RB did NOTHING. Plus, remember that RB has a historically very, very high bust rate. Think Blair Thomas, who was another can't miss RB.

If Simmons is less BPA in this draft, name anyone who is comparable to him? Any LB that you can think of.

[like54ninjas]

I don't know what the hell you are talking about anymore. Not sure I ever really did.

Point of attack players are the ones who take on and shed BLOCKERS. Someone HAS to do that on EVERY play. That is what defense is all about. The offense tries and block the defenders, the defenders shed the blocks and tackle. That's it. That's playing run defense.

Again, all those hall of fame LB are guys who did NOT take on blocks, but were guys who ran to the ball and tackled. That is what makes them special. Guys like Vigil or Tranquill or Perryman no matter how much you cover them up, are not fast and explosive enough to make [plays sideline to sideline, running guys down all over the field. That is the shit that gets people nominated for the hall of fame, and the others, while being solid players might, might eventually be boarderline pro bowl players.

If you are saying that Simmons is the type of player who can't tackle because he is too soft or something, you need to go back and watch him play. He has no issues there. He is an excellent tackler. Open field, inside, outside. He is not the kind of player who tries to deliver knockout blows on every single hit, but he tackles well and fairly hard on. The guys who go for knockout hits, for the most part, tend to miss too much, and the rules are cracking down on them anyway.

Takeo Spikes was a run stuffing MLB at the end of his career, but no one is really playing guys like him at LB anymore. NE has a few of them, but they are used pretty sparingly. I don't know why you are bringing them up. In todays game, he would be a part time player, brought in to play specialty run D when the other team goes heavy personnel. Simmons, being a run and hit LB who can cover a ton of ground is the type of LB every team needs one of. He is a true sideline to sideline player.

You are way too hung up on the idea of mike vs will LB. If you were playing base I am not a fan of playing base D LB much at all. When the offense brings out base personnel (2 TE, or 2 RB formations), then we can afford to go nickel or maybe base personnel on D. In goal personnel, it might make some difference.

For the most part, teams are trying to spread us out and run into the spaces. Simmons makes the field smaller because of his speed. The same way our DB make the field smaller when we play dime Dline/shortyardage D, we may pull a DB in favor of a LB (in which case Simmons would be outstanding by the way). But for the most part we need a LB who can play in the dime D, because that is the alignment that we will probably be in around 70% of our defensive snaps. NFL average is offenses will play 3 (or more) WR 64%, some playing much more. KC plays that, but spends a lot of time in 2 TE and 2 RB one they get a lead and are running the clock down.
.
You can make the OL argument at ANY position. You need good players across the board. NFL teams will find weakness and exploit them.

We have a chance to put together the type of D that can compensate for other shortcomings. We are not going to have a doiminant offense even if we draft several OL. We will still be reacting to other teams moves, instead of forcing them to react to one of our units.

As far as RB, it has always been this way. Top notch RB are not worth the draft capital and/or salary that other positions are. They are slightly better players than the RB you find later in the draft, or as college FA. But mostly a RB production is going to be set by the rest of the offensive players blocking for him. Top draft capital/FA signings are simply not worth that much more than the bottom tier guys. There are plenty of examples of guys who were backups, got trust into the starting role, and got their 1200 yards rushing because they simply got enough carries and could sustain an offense. There are plenty of cases top notch RB did NOTHING. Plus, remember that RB has a historically very, very high bust rate. Think Blair Thomas, who was another can't miss RB.

If Simmons is less BPA in this draft, name anyone who is comparable to him? Any LB that you can think of.

:toyou:

:anchorjump:

:sob:

:exparrot:

[Topcat]

Bolts love Love:

image.png

https://chargerswire.usatoday.com/

[Lone Bolt]

Bolts love Love:

image.png

https://chargerswire.usatoday.com/

:idgaf:Why would you ruin a perfectly nice, Easter Sunday afternoon?

[Boltjolt]

That's got to be liars month. How can you watch him and say he has anything like Mahomes asside from a strong arm.
Love is spelled Bust in this case

[Boltgang74]

If they draft Love it will be goodbye TT and Lynn alot quicker than anticipated.Especially with our 6th pick?!?