Welcome Josh Palmer, WR, Tennessee (Pick #77)

[powderblueboy]

Meyer has tons more football coaching experience than Staley. Neither has been the head coach for a single NFL game, so that is the same for both coaches--advantage Meyer overall based upon experience.

Staley made a poor decision. The Jaguars chose Johnson over every other released player in the NFL. I would say that that is saying something.

I do not believe that there is a single WR group for any team in the entire league that Johnson would not improve if added instead of one of the team's current WRs.

We had one of the deepest WR groups in the league and Johnson should not have been anywhere near the bottom the WR depth chart.

The concern about Palmer is not so much that he has no experience, but that he has no elite traits--zip, zero nada. I think that players that do not get much separation, do not have great ability in the air, and do not have very large frames like Palmer are interception magnets because the QB will be frequently throwing into good coverage when targeting Palmer for anything other than a very short, quick pattern against soft coverage.

He has tons more experience coaching at the college level. The level of difference between players at Ohio State and the NFL is enormous.
The NFL doesn't care how sincere you appear to be when meeting with parents of top recruits.
Lots of high school head coaches could bury Urban with game day experience. I'm not certain where you are going with that.

And few receivers have 'elite' traits, including some elite receivers.
Keenan Allen, Hopkins,....the greatest receiver of them all, none of them have 'elite' traits measured by the underwear olympics.
There are a whole slew of traits scouts look for when evaluating receivers that don't make it into the combine...ability to catch
a football in a congested area being one of them.

And the inference is that T-billy is blessed with elite traits....where in reality, he has maybe one, mixed with mostly below average traits.
Why wring your hands over a guy who caught just 20 passes from Herbert last year?

[DragonIce]

You mean Urban’s winning HC experience at Utah, Florida and Oh State is better than John Carroll U?

It isn't even close, but not in the way you think.

John Carroll has produced more than 20 current NFL coaches, scouts, and executives in the National Football League. Yup, a tiny school with 3,500 students is a bit of an NFL leadership academy.

https://www.nfl.com/videos/schrager-why-john-carroll-university-is-a-hotbed-for-nfl-coaches-executives-and-

[DragonIce]

You are guilty of some pretty ridiculous distortions.

A number of us remember quite well your long-winded rant about how the Chargers opting for Covington over Square was a catastrophe and a symptom of TT's stupidity. Now Square is out of the league! Anyone who doubted you was WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.

And we saw what you wrote tonight about Staley...unless you changed your post to eliminate the evidence.

Your drivel about T Johnson will predictably be forgotten and denied when things don't turn out as you expect.

[Guest]

A number of us remember quite well your long-winded rant about how the Chargers opting for Covington over Square was a catastrophe and a symptom of TT's stupidity. Now Square is out of the league! Anyone who doubted you was WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.

And we saw what you wrote tonight about Staley...unless you changed your post to eliminate the evidence.

Your drivel about T Johnson will predictably be forgotten and denied when things don't turn out as you expect.

My discussion was PFF based as I have stated many times. I always emphasized that these were reserve DL players. They were never game changing players. The emphasis you place on the issue is ridiculous and not based in fact.

I have been very clear about what I found to be Anthony Lynn level coaching about what Staley has done. That statement was limited to roster moves. I even specifically gave examples of how I expect Staley to be better than Lynn in the area of clock and timeout management. Your repeated and pathetic inability to state correctly what I have said about just about everything is your very big problem, not mine.

I do not need to change anything. Your failure to state my positions correctly stands very well on its own time after time after time.

Johnson actually helped our team last year. That is just a fact. So there is zero reason to believe that he would not have this year. To a lesser degree, it is like me saying that Derwin James would have helped us last year had he been healthy. In one sense, it cannot be proven. But in another sense, anyone with even a small portion of knowledge about the Chargers knows that it is true. The same is true of Johnson, but not quite to the same degree.

The reality that Johnson would have helped the Chargers this year has nothing to do with what Johnson does or does not do with some other team. That has nothing to do with what my position. There is no expectation because Johnson is not a Charger at this time. There is just the extreme likelihood that Johnson would have helped the Chargers this year which is based on Johnson's past performance just as most would believe that Derwin James would have helped us last year if healthy, which is also based on his past performance.

[Guest]

He has tons more experience coaching at the college level. The level of difference between players at Ohio State and the NFL is enormous.
The NFL doesn't care how sincere you appear to be when meeting with parents of top recruits.
Lots of high school head coaches could bury Urban with game day experience. I'm not certain where you are going with that.

And few receivers have 'elite' traits, including some elite receivers.
Keenan Allen, Hopkins,....the greatest receiver of them all, none of them have 'elite' traits measured by the underwear olympics.
There are a whole slew of traits scouts look for when evaluating receivers that don't make it into the combine...ability to catch
a football in a congested area being one of them.

And the inference is that T-billy is blessed with elite traits....where in reality, he has maybe one, mixed with mostly below average traits.
Why wring your hands over a guy who caught just 20 passes from Herbert last year?

Meyer has tons more head coaching experience than Staley, which is probably the single most important factor as head coaching is different than other coaching positions. But more than that, Meyer has been coaching for almost as long as Staley has been alive and has been coaching in elite college programs that produced NFL players. There is no comparison, Meyer has more football knowledge than Staley at this point.

Elite traits are not limited to measurables. Why would you think that? Allen and Williams have no elite measurables, but both have elite traits. Allen has the ability by using his technique and quickness to get open almost immediately on a high percentage of passing plays. Williams has the ability to make contested catches in the air. It is the kind of trait that makes the player really stand out versus the average player with respect to that trait.

Johnson's elite trait is his speed, but he also is a good route runner and has good hands. He has no below average traits as a receiver. Guyton's elite trait is also his speed, but he has good hand fighting technique and he has good contact balance.

I see no other elite WR traits in any other WR on our roster.

[Panamamike]

He has tons more experience coaching at the college level. The level of difference between players at Ohio State and the NFL is enormous.
The NFL doesn't care how sincere you appear to be when meeting with parents of top recruits.
Lots of high school head coaches could bury Urban with game day experience. I'm not certain where you are going with that.

And few receivers have 'elite' traits, including some elite receivers.
Keenan Allen, Hopkins,....the greatest receiver of them all, none of them have 'elite' traits measured by the underwear olympics.
There are a whole slew of traits scouts look for when evaluating receivers that don't make it into the combine...ability to catch
a football in a congested area being one of them.

And the inference is that T-billy is blessed with elite traits....where in reality, he has maybe one, mixed with mostly below average traits.
Why wring your hands over a guy who caught just 20 passes from Herbert last year?

Tbillly played 263 snaps last season. Guyton actually lead our offense with over 900. That shocked me.

Palmer will far exceed Tbilly snap count AND contribute on coverage units.

If TBilly would spend an offseason fielding 100 punts a day, and commit to tackling just giving him a shot at a special teams role perhaps he wouldn't be bouncing around to his 6th team now. Depth players need to contribute on special teams or they run the risk of finding themselves expendable on a limited roster.

[DragonIce]

If we had a TPB poll and the questions were:

-While good dialog collects wisdom, do you repeatedly find dialog with particular posters is futile, only dragging everyone and everything down?
-Are you embarrassed at the time you've spent squabbling with particular posters, where nothing is really explored or learned?

I must vote yes, yes. I'm embarrassed I got sucked in. Time to move on.
Get Busy Living or Get Busy Dying.

[Panamamike]

WTF? Tyron Johnson would be the 4th best WR on Tampa Bay's roster right now. He would also be the 4th best WR on our team.

Hill is only on the team because he is the team's PR. When a team only carries a WR to play STs, the team should automatically carry at least 6 WRs. Any other decision is idiotic because a team that carries only 5 WRs with one being solely the dedicated PR only has 4 real WRs on the roster and that is not enough.

While he did have 7 receptions for us last year, the reality is that KJ Hill should never be on the field for us as a WR.

I doubt he would make Tampa Bay's roster. Their depth wide receivers play roles as either the primary or secondary return men for punts and kickoffs and have rolls on coverage units. What you're not quite grasping, or more accurately choose to ignore, is that depth wide receivers and DBs almost always need to be able to contribute on special teams.

[dmac_bolt]

I do not like roster moves that weaken the team. It is sheer stupidity and does not give me warm fuzzies about Staley. I am not kidding when I said that Johnson should be on this team over at least two of the 5 kept WRs and at least 20 players that made the original 53 man roster. Johnson should have been anywhere near the roster bubble.

This is a team that had the talent potentially to win a Super Bowl, but we made some mistakes in the draft. We did not shore up the safety position other than by choosing a fringe NFL/practice squad level player in Webb, which followed us already taking and keeping a practice squad level player in Gillman to go with a minus starter in Adderley. And then we went with a short and not our best group at our best and deepest position (WR) so we could keep dog manure at other positions. I do not see any sort of coaching genius here. I see closer to its opposite. I see Anthony Lynn level coaching with these roster moves.

And mistakes like the ones made by Staley with the roster and Telesco with the draft picks that lead to a lack of quality depth tend to get exposed when we have some injuries, which our team has had every year. It is right there for the taking and our front office and coaches refuse to take it. These blunders seem so simple to avoid that it is unfathomable how these mistakes are made.

So … a while longer to maybe never. Got it.

[dmac_bolt]

Well, you only got 3 of the 4 statements you attributed to me wrong. Hey, I guess that is an improvement for you. Next time you can try to double your accuracy and get all the way to 50% correct.

1. I said Square's 2020 PFF numbers in relation to Covington's suggested that he would be better than Covington this year. That was true when I said it. It was true yesterday. It is true today and will be true forever.

2. I did say that Johnson was better (meaning on our team) than two of the WRs that we kept. That was the one statement of the four that you got right. That is true now and cannot truly be disproved as Johnson is no longer on our team so we do not know what his career arc would have been with Herbert. We do know that he was gaining momentum as last year progressed and had emerged as a strong route runner in addition to being a major deep threat.

3. What I actually said, and contrary to your inept representation, was that Urban Meyer's football knowledge was greater than Staley's owing in large part to Meyer coaching for nearly as long as Staley has been alive. Good luck trying to challenge that point.

4. Again, what I actually stated, and not what you dribbled out in your post, was that the cutting of Johnson versus the other players kept was a roster move on par with Anthony Lynn level coaching in the starting of Tyrod Taylor over Justin Herbert. They are both examples of major roster mismanagement. That does not mean that all aspects of Staley as a coach are on par with Anthony Lynn. For example, I am almost positive that Staley can manage a clock and timeouts better than Lynn since I think most intelligent 12-year-olds could accomplish that.

You are guilty of some pretty ridiculous distortions.

You’re hilarious. You literally wrote those four things, and you literally admit it in this itemized rehash before denying it.

1. “I said Square … would be better than Covington …” = Check!
2. “I did say that Johnson was better … than two of the WRs …” = Check!
3. “… Urban Meyer's football knowledge was greater than Staley's” = Check!
4. “… cutting of Johnson … was a roster move on par with Anthony Lynn level coaching” = Check!

[Ghost of Quacksaw]

If we had a TPB poll and the questions were:

-While good dialog collects wisdom, do you repeatedly find dialog with particular posters is futile, only dragging everyone and everything down?
-Are you embarrassed at the time you've spent squabbling with particular posters, where nothing is really explored or learned?

I must vote yes, yes. I'm embarrassed I got sucked in. Time to move on.
Get Busy Living or Get Busy Dying.

There are always at least a few Trolls on *any* forum. And by that, I mean posters whose entire goal is to be oppositional, judgmental, negative, and to create discord.

There's something about that kind of exchange that makes Trolls feel powerful, so they want to keep the toxicity going, and the most constructive thing the rest of us can do is to refuse to feed them.

But you are correct, sir: If that's not the kind of bullshit we want, then we need to be vigilant about not getting sucked in.

[Topcat]

The Niner's HC Kyle Shanahan is known for this axiom on his perpetually well regarded offenses: "Everybody blocks." If you are a receiver you absolutely are no exception.

The first meeting Staley had with staff he threw up a screen with big picture philosophy. What was #1 (!) thing on the list for offense: BLOCKING. https://youtu.be/35Td4n0eIdI?t=535

We fans don't much even notice our receiver's blocking and special teams play. For Staley it's a core, football 101. Does a player have the physical skills for ST and for blocking? Does he have the commitment to it.

Aside from our return specialist, these guys must contribute in ways beyond just catching.

So, Staley values:

1. blocking
2. a TE-heavy offense (4 TE's on our roster) with less than usual wideouts on the roster
3. not jawing at opponents which can lead to penalties which kill drives and could lose games
4. receivers not making mental mistakes leading to incompletions and picks
5. players who can be at least serviceable on special teams

Apparently, Johnson, though talented, didn't fit Staley's system and the abovementioned requirements...sorry to see him go, and nothing personal, but this is a business...