Welcome Josh Palmer, WR, Tennessee (Pick #77)

[Velo]

reports from TC that Johnson was chirping a lot.

What specifically was he chirping about? I don't doubt it at all actually. I was really high on him and felt he had considerable talent that was going to emerge this season. But I could also see that he had an "attitude," if you will, his head was getting a little too big for his britches, as my mother used to say. I was hoping he would mature out of it. It's possible he had a "me-first" attitude and that Staley felt the team was better off without him. I don't know, but I really want to know.

[Guest]

The Chargers have moved on from decent players in the past in moves that flabbergasted fans in the moment but the reasons later became apparent when details about the player emerged. Darius Philon was one. Chris McCain was another.

And sometimes the team makes a bad decision. I get that Staley and company did not like Johnson, but there is no evidence of a major character issue. They did sign him and he did play for the team just last year.

[Guest]

Your methodology is flawed.
Comparing an extrapolated 17 game season, in which Johnson got production because of injury to 13 & 81 at end of season, is absurd.
It is apples to truck tires.

Doing worse than Johnson?
Johnson hadn’t even made the 53 until G4 and will take several more weeks/games before he would surpass 3 receptions.
Using your math Palmer projects to triple Johnson’s reception total.

Johnson has a limited route tree, doesn’t block well, plays no ST, and was a mouthy chirping fool during TC.
These are reasons why he isn’t on the Charger’s roster even with his 4.34 PD (add .08 = 4.42) is fast and he has a third gear but very little explosion off the line.

Lets give this a rest until we get enough data/evidence for a simple comparison.

I disagree with your approach. We can see what Johnson did on a per game basis. If anything, if you want to argue the trend, then Johnson was clearly ascending. Palmer is doing next to nothing and there is nothing to suggest that trend will not continue.

The special teams argument as to Palmer over Johnson is ridiculous in the context of the team only keeping 5 WRs and already keeping one essentially ST only WR in Hill. The fact is that Palmer was hyped as a great receiver and so far he can't carry Johnson's, well, johnson.

If Johnson were used properly for us this year, there is no reason to believe that he could not put up at least what he put up in 12 games in 17 games even if Allen and Williams played every game.

Emphatically, the shot plays are the very play that our offense has been missing this year so far. This was predictable and predicted by me when we cut Johnson.

But I do not disagree with the notion that there is a lot of season left for Palmer to make his mark in a positive way and I hope he does for the benefit of the team.

[RollingThunder]

For the 50th time, what Johnson does for some other team is totally irrelevant to what he has proven he can do for our team. We are not guessing at what might happen. We already know what did happen when Johnson played for us.

You keep ignoring the fact that this is a different scheme with different coaches. Shane Steichen is a stretch the field Norv Turner Disciple while Joe Lombardi's scheme is more of a Saints short and intermediate passing model mixed in with some shots down field.

We aren't going deep as much this year because 1. we are taking what the defense is giving us and 2. Justin Herbert is even better than we thought at being able to control a game with short and intermediate passing.

In other words, the body of evidence you keep pointing to as a comparison means nothing in this new system. There is zero evidence Johnson would have succeeded here as everything has changed and the coaches most likely saw the results of that on the field during camp and training sessions.

[JAFA]

This ^^^^^^^.

Coaches who are paying attention are adopting versions of the Staley / Fangio defense, which at it's core is predicated on denying chunk plays, forcing the offence to be patient and then capitalizing on their mistakes. Exactly what we did to KC. So deep threats are not as necessary (certainly not multiple deep threats), but smarts, quickness, toughness, route running and being on the same page with the QB are at a premium. The coaching staff clearly thought that, between Guyton and Johnson, Guyton was the better option.

It's not that Tbilly wasn't / isn't a good receiver, it's that we didn't need 2 guys who specialize in a task (deep threat) which will be the 1st thing defenses we face will want to take away.

[Boltjolt]

I have never maintained that Johnson was a great fit for every team. My concern has always been about what we lost in cutting Johnson. What Johnson does or does not do for another team is irrelevant as he has already proven what he can do for us. There is no debate. There is no speculation. The results are in and final on that point.

He was a fit for our team because Herbert excels at passing the ball deep and because neither Allen nor Williams are burners. He was a perfect complement to them. He and Guyton could combine to put added pressure on defenses in a fashion similar to Hardman and Hill. I always thought of them as the poor man's Hill and Hardman.

It is pretty unbelievable to me that posters recognize that opponents are so concerned about the deep passing game displayed last year that they are altering their defensive alignments to prevent it on the one hand, but on the other go on to dismiss Johnson's vital role in the deep passing game that has created such an impact on our opponents.

I said our deep passing game would suffer with Palmer and without Johnson and it has. I do not think I could have been more right about that, though it has only been four games. I think it is crystal clear that Palmer is not a deep threat like Johnson was for us.

Also, we are the only team that has given Johnson a significant number of in game snaps. He is one for one when given a meaningful opportunity to play.

While it is still early, Palmer has not been of any significance at all, actually producing at about one-third of the rate at which I expected him to produce given all of the team's preseason hype of him as a great WR.

To be fair, he showed what he can do in last years offense. This one is different and he dont play STs. Again, i didnt like him being cut for Hill but it is what it is. No need to keep talking about it. He isnt coming back. Tyron Johnson was not THE ONE PLAYER to take us over the top.

[Guest]

You keep ignoring the fact that this is a different scheme with different coaches. Shane Steichen is a stretch the field Norv Turner Disciple while Joe Lombardi's scheme is more of a Saints short and intermediate passing model mixed in with some shots down field.

We aren't going deep as much this year because 1. we are taking what the defense is giving us and 2. Justin Herbert is even better than we thought at being able to control a game with short and intermediate passing.

In other words, the body of evidence you keep pointing to as a comparison means nothing in this new system. There is zero evidence Johnson would have succeeded here as everything has changed and the coaches most likely saw the results of that on the field during camp and training sessions.

Running a system tailored for the strengths and weaknesses of Drew Brees is questionable when Herbert's strengths and weaknesses are very different. Having a high end quick strike capability is never a bad thing. Retaining an ability that put fear into opponents is not a bad thing. The lack of shots down the field has not been a good thing. If Guyton is not on the field, there is zero reason for any defense to be super concerned about our deep passing game because absent a blown coverage, our deep threat capability is much more limited than it was. Other teams feared it because it was good. We limited it because we were, in that moment, stupid.

The fact is that when Guyton and Johnson were on the field, that put a lot of pressure on defenses to deal with the threat posed by multiple speedy WRs just as it does for KC with Hardman and Hill. And that was a great complement to the short passing game options with Ekeler, Allen, Henry and Mike Williams. Mike Williams can make contested catches on deeper passes, but he is not the blow by and get 5+ yards wide open threat that Guyton and Johnson are. Williams has done that as he did, for example, against New Orleans and Patrick Robinson, but that was more of a blown assignment than it was the player getting physically overwhelmed with speed.

And finally, Palmer contributes to the receiving offense how exactly? By not being very good at anything. Got it.

[Heatmiser]

Still talking about a 6th WR, a street FA, a guy buried on the bench for a crummy team?

Why?

TG

[equivocation]

Still talking about a 6th WR, a street FA, a guy buried on the bench for a crummy team?

Why?

TG

This is the song that never ends....

[Guest]

To be fair, he showed what he can do in last years offense. This one is different and he dont play STs. Again, i didnt like him being cut for Hill but it is what it is. No need to keep talking about it. He isnt coming back. Tyron Johnson was not THE ONE PLAYER to take us over the top.

We agree about Johnson versus Hill. I also think that when a team keeps a WR that is a dedicated returner and not much else, then the team needs to keep 6 WRs.

I was not the one that raised Johnson in the recent discussion. Others did and I responded, especially as it relates to Palmer, who, though it is early, has demonstrated nothing. At least we knew that Johnson did have a specific ability even if we did not consider anything else.

The main issues are 1) that Johnson's best ability trumps Palmer's average abilities, 2) we kept a not useful WR in Hill and 3) wasted a third round draft pick that could have been used to fill other needs (such as selecting Spencer Brown to play swing tackle now in the "unlikely" event that Bulaga became injured and to replace Bulaga later at RT). There were other team needs that could have been filled as well.

[Guest]

You would think this Palmer guy would do something at some point to shut me up and let all of you guys mock the hell out of me. I am rooting for you guys to get your chance--have been all along.

[dmac_bolt]

You would think this Palmer guy would do something at some point to shut me up and let all of you guys mock the hell out of me. I am rooting for you guys to get your chance--have been all along.

He may not know about you yet.