Former OC Kellen Moore - Discussion

[blueman]

Who was worse?

Lynn
Riley
McCoy

Meh, they all sucked.

[Boltdiehard]

Who was worse?

Lynn
Riley
McCoy

McCoy

[DerwinBosa]

Lol, not sure Lynn's real title in SF but seems they just hired him In case he gets another HC shot to get two 3rd round comp picks. Just kind of odd and they have been piling those comp picks up.

I didn't think of that. Could be true. Getting the compensatory picks would be brilliant, but I think they'll just end up stuck with him, because I can't see him receiving another head-coaching job in the NFL.

I know he played for Mike Shanahan for three years, and then worked under him as an assistant coach for another three seasons right after he retired from playing. I just assumed that's why Kyle gave him the assistant head coach/running backs coach job last season, after Dan Campbell fired him following his one year as the Detroit Lions' offensive coordinator.

I've always wondered this: did Lynn not want to draft Herbert in 2020? Obviously it's clear he wanted to play Tyrod Taylor over Herbert, even after Herbert played so well in his first start. I just want to know if there's anything out there that says Lynn spoke up against picking Herbert before or during the 2020 NFL Draft.

[blueman]

Seemed ecstatic when we chose him on draft day.

[powderblueboy]

McCoy

In retrospect, McCoy was not horrible.

Considering the string of injuries in 2014, and the complete garbage Telesco put out there in 2015 - 2016,
very few head coaches would have got those teams above 500.

[powderblueboy]

I didn't think of that. Could be true. Getting the compensatory picks would be brilliant, but I think they'll just end up stuck with him, because I can't see him receiving another head-coaching job in the NFL.

I know he played for Mike Shanahan for three years, and then worked under him as an assistant coach for another three seasons right after he retired from playing. I just assumed that's why Kyle gave him the assistant head coach/running backs coach job last season, after Dan Campbell fired him following his one year as the Detroit Lions' offensive coordinator.

I've always wondered this: did Lynn not want to draft Herbert in 2020? Obviously it's clear he wanted to play Tyrod Taylor over Herbert, even after Herbert played so well in his first start. I just want to know if there's anything out there that says Lynn spoke up against picking Herbert before or during the 2020 NFL Draft.

Since Lynn should have known that Herbert was the organization's top prospect the draft before,
whatever negative opinions he held against Herbert would have been suppressed.

He wanted a mobile quarterback from the get-go, and Herbert should have fit that bill.
No reason to think that he objected privately to the choice.

Lynn wanted to get a contract extension, so he knew he had to win that year.
The organizational plan going in was to sit Herbert, who everyone felt was raw, and start Taylor.
He genuinely felt that the veteran Tyrod, who won his only start, was a better option for his survival.

We also know that Lynn was very loyal to certain individuals (Tyrod by all accounts being a great guy),
and he had a bit of the case of tunnel vision.

[Caslon]

Those three are why “players coach” is verboten term to use nowadays. Kiss of death. An owner sanctioned No No.

[dmac_bolt]

Great questions!

1st drive: They work their way into the redzone via 6 passes and 2 runs (runs of 7 and 8 yards. Once in the redzone... 3 straight pass plays, resulting in a FG. Oh, how we love our FG's!!!! I like to describe these situations as -4 point differential.

2nd drive: They call 4 pass plays, 4 run plays (one of each in the redzone) and... TD!!! Surprise, surprise...
Note: the 4 run plays will only net 5 yards... yet effectively open up the passing game. Was Nutty surprised...? Not really. Nutty likes 7 points better than 3 points.
We're up 10-0. It should be 14-0.

3rd drive: After Ekeler runs for 3 straight 4-yard gains... we pass it on 3rd-and-2 (obviously discouraged by the Chiefs inability to stop the run)... and we throw an incompletion... punt.

4th drive: After a 3-yard run by Ekeler and a 6 yard run by Kelley around mid-field... the 2-minute warning allows the Charger brass to mull over the down, situation, and time remaining. In their infinite wisdom, they decide to pass (it's habit at this point)... and take the sack. And punt! Luckily, the Chiefs don't take advantage of our missed opportunity. We go into half-time with a modest 10-7 lead and the 2nd half kick-off coming our way.

5th drive: In a rare display of balanced play calling (6 runs, 5 passes) the Chargers easily matriculate the ball down the field and score a 3rd quarter TD! Yes, in the 3rd quarter! Yes, a TD! Nutty is both surprised... and not surprised! We are now up 17-7.

6th drive: After the Chiefs respond to get back to 17-14... the Chargers throw an incompletion on 3rd-and-2. Punt. Not what we were looking for.

7th drive: Deep in our own territory, @ the 9-yard line... we throw 3 straight times. 2 incompletions and a sack. We punt from our own 2 yard line Chiefs the ball on our 36-yard line. After 9 plays (3 stout defensive stops @ the 3 yard line)... Chiefs tie the game up with a FG. Apparrently, we're not the only NFL team that enjoys incompletions from the 3-yard line and ensuing FG's. Horray! But not hurray... by this time the momentum has swung. Scoring a TD is imperative!

8th drive: Despite the inefficient previous 4 straight incomplete passes that have brought us to this tie game... the Chargers go into a passing frenzy (6 passes, 1 run). 3 short passes to Ekeler and 2 completions to Gerald "Scapegoat" Everett has them starring into the endzone... a short 3 yards away. On a night where the Chargers have a 3.1 ypc average, the Lombardi running plays have been inefficient, yet effective. The fact that the 0.1 yard difference in ypc average and actual distance to the drastically needed lead and momentum change... is somehow lost... and I do mean lost... in the ensuing scramble to run down the field to quick-snap a 1st-and-goal-from-the-3 situation. All time outs remain... 10:30 still remains... this won't even be the last possession of the night for the Chargers. Each team will receive the ball 3 more times before the night is through. In the rush and exhaustion players are coming off the field.... No! Back on the field! Wait....... Chiefs up 17-24... all momentum for the Chiefs continues. Nutty walks down the halls in utter confusion. How could we have utterly outplayed the Chiefs... and still be down by 7 points. Something is wrong here. Tomorrow, I'll systematically analyze the situation (already knowing exactly what went wrong. Shut down the Game Day Thread for the night... it's imploding on itself and no relevant information can be gleaned.

9th drive: People will point to Ekeler's -2 yard run on 3rd-and-2 as evidence that you can't run there. But, they'll have to also ignore that he had just run for 5 yards to get us in that 3rd-and-2 position. Even with Corey Linsley out of the game by this drive... the 3rd-and2 run call was the correct call.

10th drive: Herbert gets crushed ribs... the momentum is gone anyways. Instead being up by 3 points, we're behind by 10 points (2 scores) and only 5 minutes left.

What did you think that all proved? just one head-scratching example - 9th drive you note Eke ran two times for a net of +3 yards, thats 1.5 yards per carry yet you insist the ONLY call on 3rd and 2 is a run. Thats your opinion, ok. It doesn’t make it correct. Chargers were NOT a good running team in short yard must-gain situations the entire year, I don’t even know what team you watched. Looking at 1st or 2nd down runs where Eke got 5 yards because defense was in nickel guarding against our real threat of pass doesn’t mean anything when its then 3rd and 2 and they bring back in their base rush defense. It completely misreads the defensive play situation and the Chargers actual success rate at short yardage rush plays. In fact, before Lombo began consistently calling more pass plays in those situations, they did try and run and got consistently stuffed.

Anyway, you kind of blurred up your prior point I commented on. I don’t even see a drive where you ran it every down in the red zone and scored a TD. Hence your “never pass in the red zone” recommendation isn’t proven here at all. I DO see drive where they passed in red zone and scored. No team in the league runs on every play in the red zone, I guess all 32 teams are stupid. You threw in a lot drives that weren’t in the red zone to muddy up your prior post about red zone play calling that I commented on, why I have no idea.

Going back to we started - you said they should never pass in the red zone. I thought that admonition was flat out bizarre. I didn’t say to never run in the red zone, I just said that never passing is a bad scheme. we can agree to disagree.

[dmac_bolt]

I didn't think of that. Could be true. Getting the compensatory picks would be brilliant, but I think they'll just end up stuck with him, because I can't see him receiving another head-coaching job in the NFL.

I know he played for Mike Shanahan for three years, and then worked under him as an assistant coach for another three seasons right after he retired from playing. I just assumed that's why Kyle gave him the assistant head coach/running backs coach job last season, after Dan Campbell fired him following his one year as the Detroit Lions' offensive coordinator.

I've always wondered this: did Lynn not want to draft Herbert in 2020? Obviously it's clear he wanted to play Tyrod Taylor over Herbert, even after Herbert played so well in his first start. I just want to know if there's anything out there that says Lynn spoke up against picking Herbert before or during the 2020 NFL Draft.

Ive never seen anything in print on that question.

[Boltnut]

What did you think that all proved? just one head-scratching example - 9th drive you note Eke ran two times for a net of +3 yards, thats 1.5 yards per carry yet you insist the ONLY call on 3rd and 2 is a run. Thats your opinion, ok. It doesn’t make it correct. Chargers were NOT a good running team in short yard must-gain situations the entire year, I don’t even know what team you watched. Looking at 1st or 2nd down runs where Eke got 5 yards because defense was in nickel guarding against our real threat of pass doesn’t mean anything when its then 3rd and 2 and they bring back in their base rush defense. It completely misreads the defensive play situation and the Chargers actual success rate at short yardage rush plays. In fact, before Lombo began consistently calling more pass plays in those situations, they did try and run and got consistently stuffed.

Anyway, you kind of blurred up your prior point I commented on. I don’t even see a drive where you ran it every down in the red zone and scored a TD. Hence your “never pass in the red zone” recommendation isn’t proven here at all. I DO see drive where they passed in red zone and scored. No team in the league runs on every play in the red zone, I guess all 32 teams are stupid. You threw in a lot drives that weren’t in the red zone to muddy up your prior post about red zone play calling that I commented on, why I have no idea.

Going back to we started - you said they should never pass in the red zone. I thought that admonition was flat out bizarre. I didn’t say to never run in the red zone, I just said that never passing is a bad scheme. we can agree to disagree.

Hey, if I led you to believe that I LITERALLY meant ZERO pass plays in the redzone... my apologies. I'm pretty sure I recommended 60/40 outside the redzone... 50/50 inside the redzone... and 40/60 inside the 10. Where I said I would have 100% tried to run... was on 1st-and-goal from the 3-yard line. We threw an immediate 99-yard pick-6... while I would have had no problem running 3 times in a row.

On 3rd-and-2, EVERY defense will bring in their extra box personnel. EVERY offense... EVERY running back will have their ypc go down. Ekeler's ypc (on 3rd down) is 2.6 ypc. Josh Jacobs (considered to be the perfect 3rd-and-short runner) had a 3.3 ypc. In that specific game (Chiefs Week 2)... the Chargers unsuccessfully passed on 3rd-and-2 several times (causing drive killers). They also converted some 3rd-and-shorts (by running) in this game. I'm just trying to combat this false narrative that we can't convert 3rd-and-shorts by running the ball... using real instances (which was the point of my posting all of the drives). The other reason that I posted all of the drives... it was in response to another poster's specific questions (game situations... prior ability to run throughout the game). Again, my apologies if I caused you confusion.

My biggest gripe (especially with Lombardi's offense) was his insistence to continue throwing the ball @ the prior clip (about 65%) even inside the redzone. Most other teams don't do this (Chiefs and Packers being the exception). When you see vastly different redzone efficiencies (Cowboys vs. Chargers) then you try to evaluate the reasons why. Given that Moore's previous QB (Prescott) had his completion % actually go up (even though he was in the redzone)... I want to know why. As I pointed out, nearly every QB's completion percentage takes a 10 point hit... some even more. Cowboys have been one of the top teams in Redzone Efficiency for the last 2 years... while we have been middle of the road (18th last year). We have one of the best QB's in the league... we have the NFL's top TD producing RB... you aren't curious...? Just a little...?

[dmac_bolt]

Hey, if I led you to believe that I LITERALLY meant ZERO pass plays in the redzone... my apologies. I'm pretty sure I recommended 60/40 outside the redzone... 50/50 inside the redzone... and 40/60 inside the 10. Where I said I would have 100% tried to run... was on 1st-and-goal from the 3-yard line. We threw an immediate 99-yard pick-6... while I would have had no problem running 3 times in a row.

On 3rd-and-2, EVERY defense will bring in their extra box personnel. EVERY offense... EVERY running back will have their ypc go down. Ekeler's ypc (on 3rd down) is 2.6 ypc. Josh Jacobs (considered to be the perfect 3rd-and-short runner) had a 3.3 ypc. In that specific game (Chiefs Week 2)... the Chargers unsuccessfully passed on 3rd-and-2 several times (causing drive killers). They also converted some 3rd-and-shorts (by running) in this game. I'm just trying to combat this false narrative that we can't convert 3rd-and-shorts by running the ball... using real instances (which was the point of my posting all of the drives). The other reason that I posted all of the drives... it was in response to another poster's specific questions (game situations... prior ability to run throughout the game). Again, my apologies if I caused you confusion.

My biggest gripe (especially with Lombardi's offense) was his insistence to continue throwing the ball @ the prior clip (about 65%) even inside the redzone. Most other teams don't do this (Chiefs and Packers being the exception). When you see vastly different redzone efficiencies (Cowboys vs. Chargers) then you try to evaluate the reasons why. Given that Moore's previous QB (Prescott) had his completion % actually go up (even though he was in the redzone)... I want to know why. As I pointed out, nearly every QB's completion percentage takes a 10 point hit... some even more. Cowboys have been one of the top teams in Redzone Efficiency for the last 2 years... while we have been middle of the road (18th last year). We have one of the best QB's in the league... we have the NFL's top TD producing RB... you aren't curious...? Just a little...?

Thats fair, maybe I misunderstood or misread. A mix of run and pass, i completely agree to. I don’t see a point in arguing 40/60 vs 50/50, vs any other sets of numbers. Our top producing TD RB does not score a lot of TDs rushing the ball inside the 5. I’ve said why with Lombo. He did try to run and got stuffed. You can argue he should have kept trying - i don’t know about that. Our rush game was sub-average in close yard situations, be it 4th and 2 anywhere on the field or 3rd and 2 at the goal line. I expect Moore improves the rush blocking and game a lot, we could find runs are more effective in 2023.

[gzubeck]

Meh, they all sucked.

It's like asking which poop stinks the least...All of them would have a hard time screwing in a lightbulb.