Former OC Kellen Moore - Discussion

[Boltnut]

He has but we have better personal on our offense than they do in key areas such as QB and WR. A pretty good OL and a HC who doesnt demand we run more.
So to me, what Dallas did don't matter much to what we will do.

Like you said, Moore doesn't have a specific scheme, he takes pieces from others and comes up with his own based on players skills. Yes we will run but we also have much more at WR than just CeeDee Lamb.

I guess we will see but i expect the offense to be different than Dallas'.

I agree... like I said, personnel will drive the play design.

If the goal is to get the most talent on the field... and utilize it... I'd expect KA, MW, and QJ on the field most of the time. Ekeler for 50% of snaps... Kelley and Spiller split the remaining 50%. Joshua Palmer and Gerald Everett rotating in between 10 and 11-personnel.

Chargers could ride that to a Super Bowl... and be afraid of no team along the way.

[21&500]

I agree... like I said, personnel will drive the play design.

If the goal is to get the most talent on the field... and utilize it... I'd expect KA, MW, and QJ on the field most of the time. Ekeler for 50% of snaps... Kelley and Spiller split the remaining 50%. Joshua Palmer and Gerald Everett rotating in between 10 and 11-personnel.

Chargers could ride that to a Super Bowl... and be afraid of no team along the way.

This sounds nice and I'm hopeful but more cautiously optimistic.
But if this eclectic, personnel-based approach is so effective, why does every other team insist on having an specific offensive scheme? Why don't we see more teams just run a bunch of different plays from multiple systems, particularly those teams with elite QBs?
idk, but the weakness seems to me that this approach is playcaller dependent. Maybe that's by design.

Idk.

[YAC]

Moore is going to call 40+ pass plays vs Dallas and the offense will score about that much.
He's probably already pre-game planning for that Dallas D.

You know he has. Revenge Match Ultra.

[dmac_bolt]

Remember that wicked processing and pass in the redzone in 2021 at Cincinnati? I think we see a lot more of that.
Redzone O will be greatly improved under Moore, I'm not worried about Herbert's ability there but I understand where your feeling is coming from.

Me neither - I don’t buy the lack of RZ effectiveness was Herbert at all, not for one millisecond. It was Lombo, its always been Lombo.

[Boltnut]

This sounds nice and I'm hopeful but more cautiously optimistic.
But if this eclectic, personnel-based approach is so effective, why does every other team insist on having an specific offensive scheme? Why don't we see more teams just run a bunch of different plays from multiple systems, particularly those teams with elite QBs?
idk, but the weakness seems to me that this approach is playcaller dependent. Maybe that's by design.

Idk.

IMO, the NFL is always lagging behind the college game, in regards to innovation. Colleges, especially those that can't compete against Big-5 recruiting-wise, have to find an advantage somehow. I mean, look at where Kellen Moore went to college (Boise State). More and more, you see the NFL copying spread formation concepts from college. The NFL used to be power blocking schemes... now, most are zone-sheme driven. College is essentially the NFL's minor league development league... both players and schemes. Like any well-developed entity (companies, institutions, sports) change comes slowly. I wouldn't be surprised to see more NFL teams (especially is their players have the skillsets) go to non-scheme specific offenses and coordinators. I think the best teams (Chiefs, Eagles) already do this. Defensively, I think the Patriots have shown to be pretty flexible and change defensive game plan from game to game... opponent to opponent.

Right now, it's the spread formations on offense and the Fangio-style deep safeties philosophies that are en vogue. I think we're pretty lucky to have 2 guys that are well-versed in those philosophies. Of course, you need the players, too. And I think we've seen that change (mainly free agency) across the defensive personnel for the last 2 off-seasons. We've also seen the offensive personnel change (mainly the draft) lately, too.

We'll see what happens. I'm sure genius will find a way to combat 2-high shell protection or leave the spread formation vulnerable. Football is chess... everything else is checkers.

[Boltnut]

Me neither - I don’t buy the lack of RZ effectiveness was Herbert at all, not for one millisecond. It was Lombo, its always been Lombo.

In the redzone, the playing field gets soooooo condensed... especially passing lanes.
I think it's ridiculous to pass in the redzone. Nothing kills a team's momentum like an interception in the redzone (see Week 2). Nothing pisses me off more to see a RB go in motion (out of the backfield) in the redzone. Why would a coordinator selectively eliminate half of their offensive choices...? Lombo was the worse! That put a lot of un-due pressure on Herbert.

Do I want to telegraph run (through obvious formation design)...? Hell no!

The only way you can spread a defense in the redzone is horizontally... I absolutely would keep 2 WR's in and split them wide.
IMO, it creates a larger surface area along the LOS to defend for a defense.
2 TE's (one on each side) creates more surface area. Put one in motion pre-snap to overload or move defenders around in the box.
Sub-out 1 of those TE's for Derius Davis... line DD up in the slot and put him in motion...? DD with a running head start and an extra blocker (TE) to the motion side...?
If a defense over-reacts (over-shifts)... you've got numbers to the vacated side. Blast Spiller into the vacated spot... or flip the ball to Ekeler (opposite direction of motion) and let him cut/power his way around/through the unfortunate defender left there.

There are so many options in the redzone! Lombo was about as un-creative as could be.
Would I sacrifice Herbert's TD pass totals (5-7 TD's) to become more efficient (TD's please) in the redzone...? Damn right!
The Chargers have been awful in the redzone for years (it didn't start with Herbert).
Moore better fix this!

[dmac_bolt]

This sounds nice and I'm hopeful but more cautiously optimistic.
But if this eclectic, personnel-based approach is so effective, why does every other team insist on having an specific offensive scheme? Why don't we see more teams just run a bunch of different plays from multiple systems, particularly those teams with elite QBs?
idk, but the weakness seems to me that this approach is playcaller dependent. Maybe that's by design.

Idk.

I don’t think he is saying Moore will not have an approach that can be called a scheme. I think he’s saying we don’t yet know exactly what it is because he will change what he did in Dallas and tailor to his players and what they do best. He has a HC thats not restricting him to a ground pound based approach and wants him to be more explosive and vertical. I’d bet he’s got his basic scheme and a thick playbook already in place but will continue tweaking details as he sees more players in full practices and game situations. e will be testing various things in TC as he dials it in for the season while likely hiding much from PS games (as all coaches do).

Andy is a great example of an OC that tailors schemes to his best skill players - he has a basic approach but modifies to his players, this isn’t a new thing.

In converse - some coaches do not, or cannot, adapt scheme to optimize players. They sometimes are coaches who once were wildly successful due to the talent they had in that moment and don’t realize it was the talent more than their scheme. If they don’t have enough of that PB/AP/HOF caliber key players that dominate their 1x1s all over the field, they tend to fail. Two Charger alumni that forever stick in my craw:

Poster Coach #1: Norval Turner
Poster Coach #2: Gus Bradley
Poster Coach New: Lombo

In the end - players still have to play. We gots some players brah!

[dmac_bolt]

In the redzone, the playing field gets soooooo condensed... especially passing lanes.
I think it's ridiculous to pass in the redzone. Nothing kills a team's momentum like an interception in the redzone (see Week 2). Nothing pisses me off more to see a RB go in motion (out of the backfield) in the redzone. Why would a coordinator selectively eliminate half of their offensive choices...? Lombo was the worse! That put a lot of un-due pressure on Herbert.

Do I want to telegraph run (through obvious formation design)...? Hell no!

The only way you can spread a defense in the redzone is horizontally... I absolutely would keep 2 WR's in and split them wide.
IMO, it creates a larger surface area along the LOS to defend for a defense.
2 TE's (one on each side) creates more surface area. Put one in motion pre-snap to overload or move defenders around in the box.
Sub-out 1 of those TE's for Derius Davis... line DD up in the slot and put him in motion...? DD with a running head start and an extra blocker (TE) to the motion side...?
If a defense over-reacts (over-shifts)... you've got numbers to the vacated side. Blast Spiller into the vacated spot... or flip the ball to Ekeler (opposite direction of motion) and let him cut/power his way around/through the unfortunate defender left there.

There are so many options in the redzone! Lombo was about as un-creative as could be.
Would I sacrifice Herbert's TD pass totals (5-7 TD's) to become more efficient (TD's please) in the redzone...? Damn right!
The Chargers have been awful in the redzone for years (it didn't start with Herbert).
Moore better fix this!

“It’s ridiculous to pass in the red zone” ??? What???

Thats …. Wow. Put me down in 100% violent opposition to the alternative which would be to run on every play in the red zone, thats insane. No offense a, good brother. We have pro bowl receivers, a future HOF gunslinger QB, and JAG running backs and you conclude that passing in the red zone is ridiculous. I can’t …. i just can’t.

Just because Lombo did not disguise red zone plays for shit is no reason to go crazy here.

[Boltjolt]

“It’s ridiculous to pass in the red zone” ??? What???

Thats …. Wow. Put me down in 100% violent opposition to the alternative which would be to run on every play in the red zone, thats insane. No offense a, good brother. We have pro bowl receivers, a future HOF gunslinger QB, and JAG running backs and you conclude that passing in the red zone is ridiculous. I can’t …. i just can’t.

Just because Lombo did not disguise red zone plays for shit is no reason to go crazy here.

Agree. I assume he means close to the EZ in the RZ like the 5 yardline.

The RZ is at our side of the 20 yardline so id assolutely pass in the RZ.
Depends on the game flow and whats working best at the time. If we are running the ball well as well as passing, then there are many, many options.

[sonorajim]

In the redzone, the playing field gets soooooo condensed... especially passing lanes.
I think it's ridiculous to pass in the redzone. Nothing kills a team's momentum like an interception in the redzone (see Week 2). Nothing pisses me off more to see a RB go in motion (out of the backfield) in the redzone. Why would a coordinator selectively eliminate half of their offensive choices...? Lombo was the worse! That put a lot of un-due pressure on Herbert.

Do I want to telegraph run (through obvious formation design)...? Hell no!

The only way you can spread a defense in the redzone is horizontally... I absolutely would keep 2 WR's in and split them wide.
IMO, it creates a larger surface area along the LOS to defend for a defense.
2 TE's (one on each side) creates more surface area. Put one in motion pre-snap to overload or move defenders around in the box.
Sub-out 1 of those TE's for Derius Davis... line DD up in the slot and put him in motion...? DD with a running head start and an extra blocker (TE) to the motion side...?
If a defense over-reacts (over-shifts)... you've got numbers to the vacated side. Blast Spiller into the vacated spot... or flip the ball to Ekeler (opposite direction of motion) and let him cut/power his way around/through the unfortunate defender left there.

There are so many options in the redzone! Lombo was about as un-creative as could be.
Would I sacrifice Herbert's TD pass totals (5-7 TD's) to become more efficient (TD's please) in the redzone...? Damn right!
The Chargers have been awful in the redzone for years (it didn't start with Herbert).
Moore better fix this!

Rivers had too many Ints and penalties in the RZ. Herbert isn't PR bad. I like the '23 personnel and OC a lot better in theory. We'll see.

[dmac_bolt]

Agree. I assume he means close to the EZ in the RZ like the 5 yardline.

The RZ is at our side of the 20 yardline so id assolutely pass in the RZ.
Depends on the game flow and whats working best at the time. If we are running the ball well as well as passing, then there are many, many options.

Even at the 5, it’s an unwise mandate to always run the ball. I’m not opposed to running plays in the RZ, or even inside the 5. I just don’t agree with zero passes nor do I agree a pass is ridiculous. I think Lombo’s over-telegraphed tendencies were the problem, not run vs pass. It’s not as if we had shit for any luck whatsoever running inside the five - we tried and got dirt shoved in the face mask for it. Moore will be more creative, I’m not worried.

[Boltnut]

“It’s ridiculous to pass in the red zone” ??? What???

Thats …. Wow. Put me down in 100% violent opposition to the alternative which would be to run on every play in the red zone, thats insane. No offense a, good brother. We have pro bowl receivers, a future HOF gunslinger QB, and JAG running backs and you conclude that passing in the red zone is ridiculous. I can’t …. i just can’t.

Just because Lombo did not disguise red zone plays for shit is no reason to go crazy here.

In a black&white world.... where the only 2 options are 1) run it 3 times in a row... or 2) throw it 3 times in a row...

1st-and-goal from the 6... I'm giving it to the NFL's leading TD scorer (over the last 2 years).
Of course, I'm not running it from whatever bullshit formation Lombo would run it from.

Last year's redzone efficiency learders:

1. Dallas: 71.43%
2. Kansas City: 71.04%
3. Philadelphia: 68.00%
18. LA Chargers: 54.55%

Corresponding QB Completion rates: Season/Redzone

1. Dak: 66.2 < 70.2
2. Mahommes: 67.1 > 58.7
3. Hurts: 66.5 > 50.0
18. Herbert: 68.2 > 56.7

While most QB's passing percentage goes down in the redzone, it's curious that Dak's actually went up!
Only one other QB became a better passer in the redzone: Justin Fields (60.4 ---> 62.2) That's right... Justin Fields has a better passing percentage than Justin Herbert in the redzone. Sadly, the Bears are better @ scoring TD's in the redzone than us... 56.0 > 54.55 To be clear... Bears best receiver was TE Cole Kmet.

I'm not saying run every time in the redzone... but maybe a 55/45 run/pass might yield better results...?