POLL: Is It Time To Bench Rivers?

[Critty]

Actually he is correct and you are wrong. Eli threw one INT against NE in the first SB he was in. His 2nd INT during those 8 games was against GB during the 2nd run. Stats are out there for you to see on various sites including NFL.com and profootballreference.com.

May bad.
off by 1 inteception. Thanks for the correction.
I'll re stated my case.
4-0. 6TDs 1int.
4-0. 9TDs. 1int.
8-0. 15TDs 2Ints.
2011 SB with the analytically worst o line in all of football. Id say that he got it done.

He is wrong because he is making the case that Rivers was absolutely perfect and beyond reproach.
everyone to blame but the man with the ball every snap.

Read Pacstud recent post above for a spot on take on River's.

[Guest]

Wow.
Of course Marino is better than Dilfer.
And being on a Superbowl team also means exactly zero for how good any single position or player is on that team. So good attempt to spin it. Come on man, you should be able to comprehend that arguement applies to all players. So, it really has no validity to it.

As for Eli.
Your just flat out wrong.
He threw 1 interception in 8 games during his two superbowl runs. Its a team game and they help him, like every QB, its always a team.

As for that 2011 run. Analytics ranked the Giant o line the worst in all of football.

Maybe there are less punts if he actually has a decent o line.

Do not take credit away from him for finding a way with his teammates to win games. He got it done.
Sometimes in close games, field position and punting and relying on your teammates gets it done. Not every win can be pretty. Forcing the rock into coverage for interceptions would lose games in difficult situational football where its hard to move the rock. Dilfer got it done by not making crucial miatakes. He even admits he knew to play within himself and not hurt the team. He gets credit for doing his job.

So does Rivers in 2011, if on Giants and playing behind the worst o line in football find a way to win. Maybe, he does. I think he would have to not turnover to get it done for that team. Who knows maybe he tosses more TDs than Eli. But then again maybe he tosses more picks and loses. We just dont know.

Had Eli ever had a 14-2 team with an LT and a Gates?
We dont know how Eli plays with those teammates.
Nor do we know how Rivers does playing with Giants.

Team can win Superbowls without great QBs, but not very often. And great QBs can not make Superbowl because the team wasn't good enough.
But when the team is good enough. And Rivers has been on Charger teams they had a lot of talent but failed. Unlucky yes. Did not get it done at times. Yes.

Rivers is not beyond reproach for no Superbowl appearances on his career.

First, Eli threw an INT in his first Super Bowl against the Patriots and threw one against Green Bay in the 2011 Super Bowl run. That makes two, not one. So, you are wrong.

In fact, through three quarters of his first Super Bowl, Eli was well on his way to having one of the worst performances ever by a quarterback in the Super Bowl until a stronger 4th quarter, aided by a fluke helmet catch and a couple of dropped INT balls, allowed Eli to finish with a thoroughly average overall game while his defense stoned one of the best offenses in the history of the NFL.

You say "Wow." and then "Of course Marino is better than Dilfer." But what you fail to appreciate is that that is just as Marino has a double digit career QB rating point advantage over Dilfer, Rivers also has a double digit career QB rating point advantage over Eli Manning. That means the two QBs are not close in terms of the quality of their overall performance. The two QBs are only close in terms of total yards because Eli has played so many games, but in terms of overall passer efficiency, Rivers and Manning are not close at all. Rivers is simply the better quarteback and, again, it is not close.

If you want a comparable for Eli Manning, you should look at Carson Palmer, though Palmer is also slightly better than Eli Manning. But still, that is a much closer, more realistic comparison.

You can speculate all you want as to what would have happened if the two players switched teams, but the reality is that better players usually make their teams better than worse players do. My expectation is that if the Giants had LT instead of Jacobs or a healthy Gates instead of any Giants TE on their roster for either Super Bowl run, then the GIants would have been that much better as Gates and LT were way better than their Giants counterparts. The same is true for Rivers, who is way better than Manning. And the reverse is true for the Chargers, who would have been a much worse team with Eli Manning than with Rivers.

Numerous teams have won Super Bowls with lesser QBs. It actually has not been that uncommon at all. Phil Simms, Ken Stabler, Jim Plunkett (2), Mark Rypien, Doug Williams, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler, Trent Dilfer, Joe Flacco, Nick Foles, the 2015 dead arm version of Peyton Manning, Eli Manning (2) and Jim McMahon all come to mind.

Rivers is not to blame for Marlon McCree, not to blame for the injuries that hit the 2007 team in the playoffs (including his own torn ACL), is not to blame for the horrible defense of the 2008 team, is not to blame for Nate Kaeding missing 3 FGs against the Jets, is not to blame for the horrible special teams of the 2010 team, is not to blame for Bront Bird being incapable of covering a slow TE on 3rd and 17, and is not to blame for the defense giving up 35 first half points against the Patriots.

[Critty]

Don't care to argue with you anymore.
Your opinion that Rivers is beyond reproach is fine.
I just disagree.
:deadhorse:

[Guest]

It’s fine if you think Rivers is a better QB than Eli but it’s ridiculous to say Eli did nothing special in the Giants 2 Super Bowls. He made a couple of game decisions g plays that will repeat on Super Bowl highlights for years to come. And those plays beat the Patriots twice.

give him his due

I think your post may have been aimed at my statement that Eli did nothing special. I stand by my position. He failed to put up even 20 points in either Super Bowl game. His stats were bad in the first game, but he rallied in the 4th quarter to have an average performance. With the way the Giants defense was playing, a better QB would have had that game long since put away.

Also, I have discussed the defenses Eli played against in the second Super Bowl run (#16, #20, #31 and #32) and how both OT wins in the two runs required zero passing yards from Eli in the OT for the win to be had due to the team already being in FG position when the Giants got possession of the ball. Between that, the helmet catch, the dropped INTs, and the defense getting hot at just the right time, I do not think their has been a luckier QB ever. And no, there is no credit when no credit is due.

Rivers is a much better QB than Eli Manning. That simply is a statistical fact and it is not even a close comparison.

[Guest]

I'm not bashing Rivers but chain is making a false argument. Rivers has always had two things consistent about him:

1. He is an elite thrower of the ball and regularly makes Top 10 throws.
2. He has "big" game-changing throws/decisions that hurt the team and cost the team games.

It's both. That's the paradox of Rivers. His best years did not involve anything special with #1, it's when he reduced or eliminated #2.

Saying he's great doesn't eliminate the mistakes; Saying he makes mistakes doesn't eliminate his greatness.

It's why he's a borderline HOFer instead of 1st ballot imo.

Doesn't matter, the Rivers era is all but over here.

I disagree that he is merely a borderline HOFer. The QB rating accounts for the mistakes and he is still in the top 10 for career QB rating in the history of the league. The notion that Rivers has been an INT machine throughout his career sometimes suggested in the media is just wrong. His career INT numbers are actually pretty low. And he will likely finish his career in the top 5 all time in both passing yards and passing TDs. The numbers alone (large production plus elite quality of production) should make him a lock as a first ballot HOFer.

Still, it is a vote and voters often demonstrate poor evaluation skills, so I just have to accept that any unjust and, frankly, stupid, result is possible.

[La Costa Boy]

I just read that PR has a 17.7 QBR when we trail by 7 or less and there is less than 5 minutes in a game. If that is true it is startling.......

[pacstud]

I disagree that he is merely a borderline HOFer. The QB rating accounts for the mistakes and he is still in the top 10 for career QB rating in the history of the league. The notion that Rivers has been an INT machine throughout his career sometimes suggested in the media is just wrong. His career INT numbers are actually pretty low. And he will likely finish his career in the top 5 all time in both passing yards and passing TDs. The numbers alone (large production plus elite quality of production) should make him a lock as a first ballot HOFer.

Still, it is a vote and voters often demonstrate poor evaluation skills, so I just have to accept that any unjust and, frankly, stupid, result is possible.

QBR doesn't take into account when those mistakes are made. His mistakes are often at the worst possible times.

Form a list of all his back-breaking game ending mistakes.
Form a list of all his last second heroics.

My guess is the first list will be longer than the second.

[Critty]

Critty I don't dislike Burrow, and I think at worst he's average (Tannehill).

I do NOT see how you see him as a guaranteed superstar.

He shows all the tools you want. Smart, tough, shows poise and pocket presence, good mechanics, very good under pressure, is very accurate. By far the most accurate QB on throws over 10 yards downfield of any QB in the draft.
Some of the QBs that have high completion percentages are dinking and dunking everything. Burrow doesn't have a cannon arm, but he can make all the throws.

https://www.si.com/college/florida/football/profiling-lsu-quarterback-joe-burrow-challenges-he-will-present-florida/

https://fansided.com/2019/11/06/joe-burrow-evolution-lsu-football-legend/

Maybe his game won't translate. But I sure do like that he is also statistically the best QB under pressure in all of college football. And his adjusted completion percentage is 85%. That is insanely good.

And his teammates say he has a look. He is extremely competive. The Longhorns messed with his jersey pregame. Supposedly it pissed him off and he said to his lineman pre game. Im throwing for 400yards on them today. And then he went and completed 80% for 477 and 4TDs.

I am going out on that limb.
It may break and im falling down.
I dont care. Im still going for it with Burrow if im GM.
And I try to bring Rivers back for 1 more season. And I sit Burrow. I'm not a fan of putting Rookie QBs into starter role year 1 even if I think they are franchise QB caliber prospect. If it becomes clear Rivers is unble to win games consistently, then I put the rookie in. I do want to give a borderline hof veteran QB a shot in the new stadium if he earns it and keeps it.

[Guest]

There you have it.
Rivers was absolutely perfect.

I think we're done here.
Nothing more needs to be argued.

I obviously intended my comment to mean that Rivers was above reproach in terms of being a significant factor as to why the why the team only had a losing 51-61 record over a period of 7 years, not that Rivers was literally perfect on every play. And to be clear, I do think Rivers was a factor as to why the team was 51-61 over the 7 years and not more like 21-91 had he not been the QB.

And I do think we are done here since you seem to want to single out arguably the best player in the history of the franchise and the player that should be the least criticized player as the reason why the team only went 51-61 over those 7 years while ignoring that Rivers was repeatedly saddled with poor OLs during the entire time, that one year featured historically bad special teams (if you are counting 2010 as one of the seasons) and another featured the team going through 4 kickers, that Rivers got the team to the playoffs despite having a terrible OL and a terrible defense in 2013 (actually playing ball control to cover up the weakness of the defense), and that Telesco basically stripped the team of its veteran talent when he arrived to mold it into his concept of what the team should look like.

Frankly, given the lack of talent and injuries, it was a minor miracle that Rivers was able to get the team to or above .500 6 times over the 9 seasons from 2010-2018. Of course, that also means that Rivers has had the team at or above .500 10 times in his 13 seasons as a starter. But hey, let's blame Rivers while talking some bullcrap about lame a$$ Eli Manning being some sort of great QB (instead of the thoroughly mediocre at best QB he actually is).

Well, no thank you to that.

[Critty]

I obviously intended my comment to mean that Rivers was above reproach in terms of being a significant factor as to why the why the team only had a losing 51-61 record over a period of 7 years, not that Rivers was literally perfect on every play. And to be clear, I do think Rivers was a factor as to why the team was 51-61 over the 7 years and not more like 21-91 had he not been the QB.

Got it. I understand your point.
The roster was and is hot garbage. If it wasn't for Rivers they would be the worst team in the league.

I just disagree with your take.

[chargeroo]

Critty I don't dislike Burrow, and I think at worst he's average (Tannehill).

I do NOT see how you see him as a guaranteed superstar.

I don't think anyone is a "guaranteed superstar" but I think Burrow is a great college QB and that makes it more likely that he will be a very good QB in the NFL. His accuracy and few picks make me like him a lot. He came up big in the biggest regular season game this year. Alabama has a very good D but he was able to have a very good game against them, and ...... that was a high pressure game. It showed he can elevate his game when the pressure is on. However, I don't see how we can move up to pick him.

[Guest]

QBR doesn't take into account when those mistakes are made. His mistakes are often at the worst possible times.

Form a list of all his back-breaking game ending mistakes.
Form a list of all his last second heroics.

My guess is the first list will be longer than the second.

The stast are the stats. TDs and INTs count the same in the 1st and 4th quarter. That is the problem with ESPN's Total QBR stat (not to be confused with the league's actual QB Rating stat). It tries to assign an arbitrarily greater weight to plays at different times in the game. Lesser QBs like Eli Manning get to try to have 4th quarter comebacks in the Super Bowl because they suck for the first three quarters. Had a healthy Rivers been on the 2007 Giants with the way that defense was playing, I think the Giants would have won by 2-3 TDs. But your approach has no way to capture that, so it is not very valuable or impressive as an approach in my view.

Instead, the closest thing that we have to capture what the QB is actually doing is his stats. Let them do the talking.

The fact is that Rivers has had the Chargers at or above .500 in 10 of 13 seasons as a starter despite having some glaring roster deficiencies over the years. The fact is that Rivers' numbers are elite, meaning that he has games put away that other QBs would not have put away and would, as a result, lose.

The other piece is that the sample size in the playoffs is way too small. I think I have done a very good job of showing the flukish nature of how the Giants won and how no reasonable person should be giving the biggest credit to Eli Manning. And, on the other hand, if I wanted to go through it all, I could show the utterly rotten luck that Rivers had at everything in the playoffs, including the murderers' row of defenses he has been forced to play against and the ridiculous underperformances by some of his teammates that led to losses in games in which Rivers did enough to win. Instead of helmet catches and uncharacteristically great defensive play by a defense that had been average, Rivers got Marlon McCree, Eric Parker, Nate Kaeding and a rash of injuries to his primary supporting cast.