Justin Herbert - Bolts Franchise QB Official Discussion

[Boltjolt]

That's very nice that Joe Burrow said that. Who cares?

There are more examples than not in which a quarterback signs an exorbitant contract and never wins a Super Bowl after. You chose a ridiculous example of Eli Manning in 2011, in which you did not recognize how badly his second and third contracts were huge factors in making the Giants non-playoff teams in every year but one from 2012 through 2019. That's seven out of Eli's last eight years they missed the playoffs, and he never won a playoff game after the 2011 season.

Here are some of many examples for you where a quarterback hasn't won a Super Bowl after signing an exorbitant contract that took up a large percentage of cap space. Hasn't happened with Aaron Rodgers after signing his first huge contract in 2013. Didn't happen in Seattle with Russell Wilson, as they won only three playoff games after his second contract. Didn't happen with Joe Flacco in Baltimore (he won one on his rookie contract), as they had just one playoff win in the six years after his second deal. We won the AFC West four years in a row. Philip Rivers made the playoffs only twice after that with us. He went to Indianapolis on a cheap contract his last year and made the playoffs. I could go on and on.

You're pointing to a ridiculous Super Bowl victory from 11 years ago. Has it happened since? No. It's been Tom Brady winning while taking much less than the rest, a quarterback on a rookie contract (Joe Flacco, Russell Wilson, and Patrick Mahomes), Peyton Manning after taking a pay cut, a backup quarterback (Nick Foles), and Matthew Stafford (after getting traded he counted only $20 million against the Rams' 2021 cap).

So, basically, as much as you point to Eli Manning as an example, someone else can say, "We don't need Justin Herbert in the playoffs. We can win the Super Bowl with our backup. The Eagles did it with Nick Foles. Why can't we?"

Can it happen? Sure. Do you want to bank on that? No.

So, why exactly do you want Justin Herbert to sign the latest highest-paid contract in NFL history?

Apparently you don't want to hear an agenda that isn't yours.

You didn't like my Mahomes mention. Who cares who his HC is, he is making SBs with his big contract .

You said Coughlin and Reece were why the Giants went to a SB. Well they left in Eli's third contract. Now you blame his contract? Alrighty.

Just believe what you want.

May as well quit being a fan then if we have no shot when we sign Herbert to a bigger deal.
We have no shot now imo with Spanos as owner but we don't stop having hope.

[DerwinBosa]

Apparently you don't want to hear an agenda that isn't yours.

You didn't like my Mahomes mention. Whomcares who his HC is, Jeni's making SBs with his big contract .

You said Coughlin and Reece were why the Giants went. Well they left in Eli's third contract. Now you.blame his contract? Alrighty.

Just believe what you want.

May as well quit being a fan then if we have no shot when we sign Herbert to a bigger deal.
We have no shot now imo with Spanos as owner but we don't stop having hope.

Patrick Mahomes hasn't won a Super Bowl on his second contract...yet. And guess what? His contract is actually team-friendly. https://chiefswire.usatoday.com/2022...ustin-herbert/

And I'm not understanding what your point is regarding Coughlin and Reese "leaving." Reese was fired in 2017. Coughlin was forced out in 2015. The Giants continued to lose after they left.So you're saying that Eli's contract had nothing to do with the Giants failing to miss the playoff seven out of his last eight years?

[Boltjolt]

Patrick Mahomes hasn't won a Super Bowl on his second contract...yet. And guess what? His contract is actually team-friendly. https://chiefswire.usatoday.com/2022...ustin-herbert/

And I'm not understanding what your point is regarding Coughlin and Reese "leaving." Reese was fired in 2017. Coughlin was forced out in 2015. The Giants continued to lose after they left.So you're saying that Eli's contract had nothing to do with the Giants failing to miss the playoff seven out of his last eight years?

He has been to one and is in another. Nitpicking here.
And no, you are contradicting the Giants success. Said it was Coughlin and Reece, not Eli then saying it was his contract holding them back after those guys left. I'm no Eli fan as a QB, didn't like him as much as Ben and Philip in that draft but he has two rings, regardless of why.

In any case, I don't care. Think what you want. Teams don't just get rid of their QBs because they cost too much unless they aren't worthy. Carr is an example of McDummy wanting somebody else like he did with Cutler,...then ended up with a worse option.

I hope they draft Levis and don't sign Rodgers but even if they do, he isn't the same QB.....even if he costs 20 million.

[DerwinBosa]

He has been to one and is in another. Nitpicking here.
And no, you are contradicting the Giants success. Said it was Coughlin and zreede, not Eli then saying it was zelis contract holding them back after those guys left. I'm no Eli fan as a QB, didn't like him as much as Ben and Philip in that draft but he has two rings, regardless of why.

In any case, I don't care. Think what you want. Teams don't just get rid of their QBs because they cost too much unless they aren't worthy. Carr is an example of McDummy wanting somebody else like he did with Cutler,...then ended up with a worse option.

I hope they draft Levis and don't sign Rodgers but even if they do, he isn't the same QB.....even if he costs 20 million.

I'm not nitpicking anything here. I'm stating facts that prove it's better to have your franchise quarterback under a reasonable contract. This is common sense. The last 11 football seasons prove this to be true. It's not a contradiction to point out that Eli still had a ton of talent around him in 2011 that was brought in by Reese and coached up by Tom Coughlin. After that 2011 season those talents either got old (Osi Umenyiora, Justin Tuck, Brandon Jacobs, etc.) and moved on to finish their careers elsewhere or they weren't re-signed because Jerry Reese couldn't afford them (Mario Manningham, Hakeem Nicks, Jason Pierre-Paul, Linval Joseph, etc.) because of....ELI's CONTRACT.

How does Eli Manning go from winning two Super Bowls and making the playoffs in five of his first seven seasons to missing the postseason the last seven of his eight years--and not winning one playoff game during that time? You still haven't answered that question, nor have you acknowledged the others who fall into the same category--Joe Flacco, Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers, etc. Instead you point to Patrick Mahomes, an example which actually doesn't support your stance on the matter, since he actually is playing on a very much team-friendly contract, and keep repeating the nonsensical aberration of Eli winning a Super Bowl in 2011.

And your Derek Carr example makes no sense, either. It's arguable that he's even a franchise quarterback, so he doesn't belong in this conversation at all. While you're at it why you don't throw Kirk Cousins and Jimmy Garoppolo into the conversation, as well?

I don't see what your issue is here. I'll ask again: do you actually want Justin Herbert to sign a contract that is NOT team-friendly?

[Boltjolt]

I'm not nitpicking anything here. I'm stating facts that prove it's better to have your franchise quarterback under a reasonable contract. This is common sense. The last 11 football seasons prove this to be true. It's not a contradiction to point out that Eli still had a ton of talent around him in 2011 that was brought in by Reese and coached up by Tom Coughlin. After that 2011 season those talents either got old (Osi Umenyiora, Justin Tuck, Brandon Jacobs, etc.) and moved on to finish their careers elsewhere or they weren't re-signed because Jerry Reese couldn't afford them (Mario Manningham, Hakeem Nicks, Jason Pierre-Paul, Linval Joseph, etc.) because of....ELI's CONTRACT.

How does Eli Manning go from winning two Super Bowls and making the playoffs in five of his first seven seasons to missing the postseason the last seven of his eight years--and not winning one playoff game during that time? You still haven't answered that question, nor have you acknowledged the others who fall into the same category--Joe Flacco, Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers, etc. Instead you point to Patrick Mahomes, an example which actually doesn't support your stance on the matter, since he actually is playing on a very much team-friendly contract, and keep repeating the nonsensical aberration of Eli winning a Super Bowl in 2011.

And your Derek Carr example makes no sense, either. It's arguable that he's even a franchise quarterback, so he doesn't belong in this conversation at all. While you're at it why you don't throw Kirk Cousins and Jimmy Garoppolo into the conversation, as well?

I don't see what your issue is here. I'll ask again: do you actually want Justin Herbert to sign a contract that is NOT team-friendly?

Team friendly indeed. It's only team friendly if they plan to cut him after 2025, or before 2025 with a lowish dead cap.

I'm sure,....at least hope the team will figure out his contract when the time comes. Hopefully after this season.

And there are many teams that Carr is better than the QB they have. But whatever.....vent away.
Flacco sux....he just had his one good season with a great defence.
I don't have an issue. You are arguing about Herbert upcoming deal and I point to Mahomes because.....well look below.

Watsons cap will be 5 mil higher and be the same the next 4 years but Cleveland is stupid. We all know their owners are dumb fucks and it was a terrible deal for them..


Screenshot_20230211-210322.png

[DerwinBosa]

Team friendly indeed. It's only team friendly if they plan to cut him after 2025, or before 2025 with a lowish dead cap.

I'm sure,....at least hope the team will figure out his contract when the time comes. Hopefully after this season.

And there are many teams that Carr is better than the QB they have. But whatever.....vent away.
Flacco sux....he just had his one good season with a great defence.
I don't have an issue. You are arguing about Herbert upcoming deal and I point to Mahomes because.....well look below.

Watsons cap will be 5 mil higher and be the same the next 4 years but Cleveland is stupid. We all know their owners are dumb fucks and it was a terrible deal for them..


Screenshot_20230211-210322.png

You weren't paying attention during the 2012 season, clearly.

The Baltimore Ravens' defense you're praising was old in 2012. Ray Lewis retired after that season and Ed Reed was released. The defense and special teams gave up 35 to Denver in the Divisional Round, and the defense alone gave up 29 to the 49ers in the Super Bowl. That pales in comparison to the Giants' defenses in 2007 and 2011 never giving up more than 20 in the playoffs while going up against Jeff Garcia, Tony Romo, Brett Favre, Tom Brady (twice), Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers, and Alex Smith. That's four MVP quarterbacks--and three first-ballot Hall of Famers who will many will have in their top ten or 15 for quarterbacks of all time. In fact, the Giants' defense gave up 20 points only once during the 2007 and 2011 playoffs, in a 37-20 win over the Packers (the only time Eli led the offense to more than 24 points in his entire postseason career).

Flacco threw three touchdown passes each in the 2011 Divisional Round, AFC Championship Game, and Super Bowl. Two years later Flacco took the Ravens to the Divisional Round and threw four touchdown passes against the Patriots, the Super Bowl champs that year, in a 35-31 loss. Flacco in his playoff career has 25 touchdown passes and 10 interceptions, and played in three conference championship games, one of which was during his rookie year, and another in the 2011 season, in which his wide receiver, Lee Evans, dropped what should have been a game-winning touchdown pass against the Patriots, followed by the Ravens' kicker missing a short field goal that would have tied it and sent it to overtime.

But, yeah, Flacco sucks and Eli, who led the Giants' offense to 19 and 17 points in his Super Bowl wins and had 18 touchdown passes and nine interceptions in his postseason career, was the main reason the Giants won those Super Bowls, and his exorbitant contract had nothing to with the Giants missing the playoffs seven out of the last eight years of his career? It was all Tom Coughlin's and Jerry Reese's fault when Eli was throwing 17 touchdown passes and 28 interceptions in 2013? OK, got it.

What about Russell Wilson winning only one playoff game and never getting back to a Super Bowl after he signed his second contract in 2014? Aaron Rodgers failing to get back to the Super since 2010? Still not answering these questions. I wonder why.

Derek Carr is so much better than many other teams' starting quarterbacks, yet he couldn't throw for more than 307 yards in any of his 15 games this season, something Jarrett Stidham (who can only get a starting job in the USFL or XFL) exceeded in his first start? How does that work?

As far as Mahomes' contract goes, his cap number was very low in 2020, when they reached his second Super Bowl. He currently has the highest cap hit percentage, at 17.2, and is playing against a team that has much better personnel along both sides of the line and many other areas. You put Mahomes on the Eagles and the betting lines will be much more in favor of the Eagles. Currently the Eagles are favored by 1.5, when they have they the much inferior quarterback and far less experienced head coach. Why is that?

[Boltjolt]

You weren't paying attention during the 2012 season, clearly.

The Baltimore Ravens' defense you're praising was old in 2012. Ray Lewis retired after that season and Ed Reed was released. The defense and special teams gave up 35 to Denver in the Divisional Round, and the defense alone gave up 29 to the 49ers in the Super Bowl. That pales in comparison to the Giants' defenses in 2007 and 2011 never giving up more than 20 in the playoffs while going up against Jeff Garcia, Tony Romo, Brett Favre, Tom Brady (twice), Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers, and Alex Smith. That's four MVP quarterbacks--and three first-ballot Hall of Famers who will many will have in their top ten or 15 for quarterbacks of all time. In fact, the Giants' defense gave up 20 points only once during the 2007 and 2011 playoffs, in a 37-20 win over the Packers (the only time Eli led the offense to more than 24 points in his entire postseason career).

Flacco threw three touchdown passes each in the 2011 Divisional Round, AFC Championship Game, and Super Bowl. Two years later Flacco took the Ravens to the Divisional Round and threw four touchdown passes against the Patriots, the Super Bowl champs that year, in a 35-31 loss. Flacco in his playoff career has 25 touchdown passes and 10 interceptions, and played in three conference championship games, one of which was during his rookie year, and another in the 2011 season, in which his wide receiver, Lee Evans, dropped what should have been a game-winning touchdown pass against the Patriots, followed by the Ravens' kicker missing a short field goal that would have tied it and sent it to overtime.

But, yeah, Flacco sucks and Eli, who led the Giants' offense to 19 and 17 points in his Super Bowl wins and had 18 touchdown passes and nine interceptions in his postseason career, was the main reason the Giants won those Super Bowls, and his exorbitant contract had nothing to with the Giants missing the playoffs seven out of the last eight years of his career? It was all Tom Coughlin's and Jerry Reese's fault when Eli was throwing 17 touchdown passes and 28 interceptions in 2013? OK, got it.

What about Russell Wilson winning only one playoff game and never getting back to a Super Bowl after he signed his second contract in 2014? Aaron Rodgers failing to get back to the Super since 2010? Still not answering these questions. I wonder why.

Derek Carr is so much better than many other teams' starting quarterbacks, yet he couldn't throw for more than 307 yards in any of his 15 games this season, something Jarrett Stidham (who can only get a starting job in the USFL or XFL) exceeded in his first start? How does that work?

As far as Mahomes' contract goes, his cap number was very low in 2020, when they reached his second Super Bowl. He currently has the highest cap hit percentage, at 17.2, and is playing against a team that has much better personnel along both sides of the line and many other areas. You put Mahomes on the Eagles and the betting lines will be much more in favor of the Eagles. Currently the Eagles are favored by 1.5, when they have they the much inferior quarterback and far less experienced head coach. Why is that?

Cmon man, some good teams dont always make it ....like ours didnt but should of. GB shouldnt have been near a playoff berth but because of Rodgers, they werewith his ig cap hit. It took his new rookie WR half the season to start producing for one thing that didnt help.

Yes Flacco does suck and hasnt come close to that season and he had a good defense. Who gives a shit. I undrstand its a team sport as i say that all the time. Ive played it, experienced it....i know. From the coaches on down to the punter, its a team sport. You have to be good, healthy as you can be and a little lucky....even a lil help from the refs, as we have seen.

Teams are going to pay their QBs and we wont be any different. Herbert is going to be here. Its up to our front office to make the contract work for them. And who knows, maybe Herbert loves being a Charger and isnt asking for every dollar he can get.

Herberts new deal will be realtively cheap his first and second year as well. Mahomes is nearly 36 mil this year and here they are again. Dont think its going to stop. The guy is just a playmaker who finds a way to win. Even with meh WRs and a great TE who isnt cheap.

If you cant stand the thought of Herbert getting paid, i dont know what to tell you. You are starting to sound Chain -esqe.

[DerwinBosa]

Cmon man, some good teams dont always make it ....like ours didnt but should of. GB shouldnt have been near a playoff berth but because of Rodgers, they werewith his ig cap hit. It took his new rookie WR half the season to start producing for one thing that didnt help.

Yes Flacco does suck and hasnt come close to that season and he had a good defense. Who gives a shit. I undrstand its a team sport as i say that all the time. Ive played it, experienced it....i know. From the coaches on down to the punter, its a team sport. You have to be good, healthy as you can be and a little lucky....even a lil help from the refs, as we have seen.

Teams are going to pay their QBs and we wont be any different. Herbert is going to be here. Its up to our front office to make the contract work for them. And who knows, maybe Herbert loves being a Charger and isnt asking for every dollar he can get.

Herberts new deal will be realtively cheap his first and second year as well. Mahomes is nearly 36 mil this year and here they are again. Dont think its going to stop. The guy is just a playmaker who finds a way to win. Even with meh WRs and a great TE who isnt cheap.

If you cant stand the thought of Herbert getting paid, i dont know what to tell you. You are starting to sound Chain -esqe.

Actually you are, by denying the facts that were thrown right at you, such as continuing to state Joe Flacco sucked and had only one good year (even though stats prove otherwise), and continuing to state that Eli Manning's contract had nothing to do with the Giants missing the playoffs in seven of his last eight seasons.

You can go ahead and hope Herbert will be better than Mahomes and Staley will somehow morph into a Hall of Fame coach.It hasn't worked for the Bills or anyone else, so I want us to create our own identity and build a more complete team that isn't so centered on the quarterback. Or perhaps you're banking for us to have a 9-8 season and go on a miraculous postseason run that leads to our first Super Bowl win in 2023 or 2024, followed by Herbert missing the playoffs for most of the rest of his career.

Sorry, my hopes are higher.

[jamrock]

Patrick Mahomes hasn't won a Super Bowl on his second contract...yet. And guess what? His contract is actually team-friendly. https://chiefswire.usatoday.com/2022...ustin-herbert/

And I'm not understanding what your point is regarding Coughlin and Reese "leaving." Reese was fired in 2017. Coughlin was forced out in 2015. The Giants continued to lose after they left.So you're saying that Eli's contract had nothing to do with the Giants failing to miss the playoff seven out of his last eight years?

Actually he has

[DerwinBosa]

Actually he has

Good catch...nothing gets by you!

[cmplxgal]

[Bolt-O]

I think the only passes that JH doesn't do well are the close in passes Maybe it was a play design thing, or his arm position because of the rib injury, but I did hate when his passes were batted at the LOS.