Justin Herbert - Bolts Franchise QB Official Discussion

[DerwinBosa]

Eli has two and he is the worst of the bunch you named. And he was taking up cap.

Just saying there is a chance.

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Doesn't matter if his cap hit is 50 or 20 mil.

We have a curse to overcome.

Oh, please. The first one was in Eli's fourth year, when he was loaded with talent around him.

The miraculous run in 2011, in which the Giants barely made the playoffs at 9-7, was more about Tom Coughlin's coaching, Jerry Reese's drafting, and San Francisco's punt returner giving the NFC Championship Game away. Eli's ridiculous contract in the ensuing years played a huge part in the Giants making the playoffs only once from 2012 through 2019.

Explain why Tom Brady took less money for basically his whole career if the cap hit doesn't matter.

[Boltjolt]

Oh, please. The first one was in Eli's fourth year, when he was loaded with talent around him.

The miraculous run in 2011, in which the Giants barely made the playoffs at 9-7, was more about Tom Coughlin's coaching, Jerry Reese's drafting, and San Francisco's punt returner giving the NFC Championship Game away. Eli's ridiculous contract in the ensuing years played a huge part in the Giants making the playoffs only once from 2012 through 2019.

Explain why Tom Brady took less money for basically his whole career if the cap hit doesn't matter.

So Coughlin took them to a 9-7 but suddenly got better in the playoffs? What about Elis other SB? He was making Rivers money. Once SB win is good, more than we have.
Carr took less as well and still nothing happening there. Now he will get less with his new team. Should we trade for him and then trade Herbert? Is that what you are saying?

Maybe Herbert will take less, but it's still going to be a lot. Brady's was alot, just not too dollar.

Spanos is still our Achilles heel. It always starts at the top and he is cheap with HCs.

[jubei]

I hated Eli but he was CLUTCH in his 2nd SB run in the POs. rapesburger was the worst QB to win a SB...thanks to the nfl's "drive off into the sunset for Bettis" that they won that game.

[DerwinBosa]

So Coughlin took them to a 9-7 but suddenly got better in the playoffs? What about Elis other SB? He was making Rivers money. Once SB win is good, more than we have.
Carr took less as well and still nothing happening there. Now he will get less with his new team. Should we trade for him and then trade Herbert? Is that what you are saying?

Maybe Herbert will take less, but it's still going to be a lot. Brady's was alot, just not too dollar.

Spanos is still our Achilles heel. It always starts at the top and he is cheap with HCs.

Are you arguing that Eli Manning single-handedly beat the Patriots 17-14 and 21-17 in those Super Bowls? The Giants' defenses held the highest-scoring offense in NFL history (at that time) to 14 points and the 2011 Patriots offense that had Gronk and Hernandez to 17.

And yes, the 2011 Giants did get hot at the right time in 2011, and very lucky in the playoffs (thanks to Kyle Williams). What did they do in the seasons thereafter, when they stopped drafting players like Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, Ahmad Bradshaw, Jason Pierre-Paul, and Linval Joseph (none of whom they re-signed after their rookie deals expired because they couldn't fit them under the cap)? They missed the playoffs more than we did from 2012 through 2019, and Tom Coughlin was pushed out and succeeded by three head coaches who got fired within two years each.

And Brady did take a lot less than Peyton, Rodgers, Matt Ryan, and plenty of others.

[DerwinBosa]

Carr took less as well and still nothing happening there. Now he will get less with his new team. Should we trade for him and then trade Herbert? Is that what you are saying?

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There is no comparison between Derek Carr and Justin Herbert. If Justin Herbert were with the Raiders and took less money he would have been in the playoffs with them last season and would not be getting traded.

I don't want us to trade Herbert. I also don't want him to kill our salary cap for the rest of his career and not win a Super Bowl. If the only way to keep him long term is to kill our salary cap for the rest of his career then yes, I would consider the idea of putting together this era's Herschel Walker type deal. If we were talking about this year I would say to the Chicago Bears you can have Herbert for this year's #1 overall pick, your next four first-round picks, Justin Fields, and two third-round picks. Being as that would never happen, I'm hoping Herbert signs a reasonable contract.

[DerwinBosa]

I hated Eli but he was CLUTCH in his 2nd SB run in the POs. rapesburger was the worst QB to win a SB...thanks to the nfl's "drive off into the sunset for Bettis" that they won that game.

Yeah, he was real CLUTCH completing 32 of 58 against San Francisco in that NFC Championship Game. Joe Flacco and Nick Foles were more CLUTCH in their Super Bowl runs.

[jubei]

Yeah, he was real CLUTCH completing 32 of 58 against San Francisco in that NFC Championship Game. Joe Flacco and Nick Foles were more CLUTCH in their Super Bowl runs.

wont argue flacco and foles cuz they played their best ball ever and converted those performances into new contracts. but i recall Sheli made throws when needed...not so much high percentage of completions, but completions when they were needed.

[richpjr]

wont argue flacco and foles cuz they played their best ball ever and converted those performances into new contracts. but i recall Sheli made throws when needed...not so much high percentage of completions, but completions when they were needed.

I also remember him throwing a pass straight to a Pats defender late that would have been the game sealing interception, but it was dropped and he got a ring.

[Boltjolt]

Are you arguing that Eli Manning single-handedly beat the Patriots 17-14 and 21-17 in those Super Bowls? The Giants' defenses held the highest-scoring offense in NFL history (at that time) to 14 points and the 2011 Patriots offense that had Gronk and Hernandez to 17.

And yes, the 2011 Giants did get hot at the right time in 2011, and very lucky in the playoffs (thanks to Kyle Williams). What did they do in the seasons thereafter, when they stopped drafting players like Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, Ahmad Bradshaw, Jason Pierre-Paul, and Linval Joseph (none of whom they re-signed after their rookie deals expired because they couldn't fit them under the cap)? They missed the playoffs more than we did from 2012 through 2019, and Tom Coughlin was pushed out and succeeded by three head coaches who got fired within two years each.

And Brady did take a lot less than Peyton, Rodgers, Matt Ryan, and plenty of others.

I am responding to your statement that a QB taking up big cap space will hamper a team going to a SB. Dont try and turn it around. That is the statement you made and teams have done it. How on earth did the Giants ever have a good defense while Eli was taking up big cap space? Good drafting is one......TT needs to draft well and lately he has done better.

Luck or not, i dont care, ill take a SB win. There arent many teams that win SB the next year.

Like Joe Burrow said, their window is his whole career.

[Boltjolt]

There is no comparison between Derek Carr and Justin Herbert. If Justin Herbert were with the Raiders and took less money he would have been in the playoffs with them last season and would not be getting traded.

I don't want us to trade Herbert. I also don't want him to kill our salary cap for the rest of his career and not win a Super Bowl. If the only way to keep him long term is to kill our salary cap for the rest of his career then yes, I would consider the idea of putting together this era's Herschel Walker type deal. If we were talking about this year I would say to the Chicago Bears you can have Herbert for this year's #1 overall pick, your next four first-round picks, Justin Fields, and two third-round picks. Being as that would never happen, I'm hoping Herbert signs a reasonable contract.

That isnt the point. Stick to your statement. Herbert is going to get paid what he is worth. Do you want him to be our QB or not? If not a Carr type or less is where we go.

[DerwinBosa]

I am responding to your statement that a QB taking up big cap space will hamper a team going to a SB. Dont try and turn it around. That is the statement you made and teams have done it. How on earth did the Giants ever have a good defense while Eli was taking up big cap space? Good drafting is one......TT needs to draft well and lately he has done better.

Luck or not, i dont care, ill take a SB win. There arent many teams that win SB the next year.

Like Joe Burrow said, their window is his whole career.

That's very nice that Joe Burrow said that. Who cares?

There are more examples than not in which a quarterback signs an exorbitant contract and never wins a Super Bowl after. You chose a ridiculous example of Eli Manning in 2011, in which you did not recognize how badly his second and third contracts were huge factors in making the Giants non-playoff teams in every year but one from 2012 through 2019. That's seven out of Eli's last eight years they missed the playoffs, and he never won a playoff game after the 2011 season.

Here are some of many examples for you where a quarterback hasn't won a Super Bowl after signing an exorbitant contract that took up a large percentage of cap space. Hasn't happened with Aaron Rodgers after signing his first huge contract in 2013. Didn't happen in Seattle with Russell Wilson, as they won only three playoff games after his second contract. Didn't happen with Joe Flacco in Baltimore (he won one on his rookie contract), as they had just one playoff win in the six years after his second deal. We won the AFC West four years in a row. Philip Rivers made the playoffs only twice after that with us. He went to Indianapolis on a cheap contract his last year and made the playoffs. I could go on and on.

You're pointing to a ridiculous Super Bowl victory from 11 years ago. Has it happened since? No. It's been Tom Brady winning while taking much less than the rest, a quarterback on a rookie contract (Joe Flacco, Russell Wilson, and Patrick Mahomes), Peyton Manning after taking a pay cut, a backup quarterback (Nick Foles), and Matthew Stafford (after getting traded he counted only $20 million against the Rams' 2021 cap).

So, basically, as much as you point to Eli Manning as an example, someone else can say, "We don't need Justin Herbert in the playoffs. We can win the Super Bowl with our backup. The Eagles did it with Nick Foles. Why can't we?"

Can it happen? Sure. Do you want to bank on that? No.

So, why exactly do you want Justin Herbert to sign the latest highest-paid contract in NFL history?

[DerwinBosa]

That isnt the point. Stick to your statement. Herbert is going to get paid what he is worth. Do you want him to be our QB or not? If not a Carr type or less is where we go.

You brought up Derek Carr, which was completely irrelevant to the conversation.

Yes, I want Herbert as the Chargers' quarterback. But I don't want him as the Chargers' quarterback for the next 15 years and we make the playoffs only three or four times during that span.

And yes, you have to draft well around the quarterback. But guess what? You have to pay those players after their rookie contracts expire.