Justin Herbert - Bolts Franchise QB Official Discussion

[Xenos]

Yup, Lynn did it before with PR back in 2017. It was when we lost four in a row to start the season. We were a run heavy team. We started winning games after Lynn took the handcuff off from PR and allowed him to audible out on some plays and pass more.

Lynn was also responsible for Rivers being less turnover prone during his first two years with the team. 2017 was also one of his best years as a QB.

[Xenos]

I feel like an article was written about this already in terms of who gets credit....
Edit: maybe the answer is that everyone had an important role. Trying to assign a percentage is weird. Lynn and the coaching staff at least established a very impressive base. The Staley move will hopefully take it to the next level.

https://theathletic.com/2314895/2021...s-nfl-records/

[Xenos]

Your sarcasm made me laugh 21, and as a long-time Herbert fan/observer, I mostly agree with your perspective. If I were doling out credit for various coaches, the order would be Beck, Pep, Steichen, Lynn. This is based on comments from Herbert along the way and various stories written throughout the entirety of the draft prep, post draft/preseason, and season.

First of all, I think based on how well Justin played right away, with the KC, Tampa, NO games as 3 of his first 4, you can pretty much cross Lynn off the list. The big leap happened before he became the starting quarterback and if anything, Lynn impeded that process by giving him virtually no first team reps before that point. This also probably limits credit to Steichen, as he was likely part of that decision making with Lynn. It is possible he was being told what to do by Lynn and that he imparted a fair bit of coaching on the system to Herbert during zoom calls and training camp, so he certainly had some role.

The impressive early performances with basically no first team work and the stories/interviews with Herbert, point to Beck and Pep as the biggest influences. It was pretty clear that Hebert made big strides in the pre-draft process with both his fundamental mechanics/accuracy and with under center footwork that he never used his entire Oregon career. I mean the guy rarely had significant footwork issues starting from game 2 on after never playing from under center in his life. That is impressive and didn't happen in a limited training camp with no preseason. This and some stories about Beck working on the mental side, lead me to believe he had the biggest influence. I do think Pep would be next in line here, as Justin has talked about appreciating Pep both coaching him hard and keeping him in a good frame of mind during the wild ride that was this season. I would also assume that whatever mechanics/footwork improvements were made or solidified with the Chargers were largely Pep's doing.

The only thing that makes me question Pep's role a touch is that Staley didn't retain him. I get that he wanted people from top offenses and so Day fit, but if Herbert/Telesco were emphasizing to Staley how important Pep was to Justin personally and to his development, I have a feeling he would have stayed on, similar to Bosa's favorite coach, Giff Smith, being retained.

Lynn get a credit for putting Herbert in the right offensive scheme to succeed, which is more than what his college coaches ever did.

[21&500]

And please do not forget that there are many QBs that were smart and had enough talent, but were not able to make it, or at least not play at a high enough level. All QBs are limited in some fashion, unless they were the few highly polished QBs at the collegiate level like Burrow, to their circumstances, specifically involving the team that selected them. The culture, QB teaching of the team's offensive plays in a way that really connects, and scheme all play a role just as well.

Please go back and review many of the analysis on Herbert, especially review the film where those analysts were commenting on. There is certainly a reason for those analysis. Beck alone does not fix all of that and Beck alone is not privy to the Chargers playbook. Herbert, just as many QBs are smart and solid people overall, but not every QB will flourish as Herbert did. Yes, it certainly starts with Herbert himself, but it goes much further than that, particularly early on in his career.

I feel like there is a disconnect somewhere
There is no need for me to go back to review analysis on Herbert. I’m agreeing with you on basically every point, I’m just asking you to what degree you think each coach is responsible for Herbert’s development? I would say in general, Herbert was going to be a great rookie regardless of coaching, but since you’re making the argument that these coaches should get more credit than some of us are willing to give, how much then?

[CivilBolt]

Lynn was also responsible for Rivers being less turnover prone during his first two years with the team. 2017 was also one of his best years as a QB.

Agree. I think it was finding the right balance. Don’t hancuff your best player too much. Imagine if Lynn played to PR’s strength early, we could have made the playoffs that year.

[BoltUp InLA]

I feel like there is a disconnect somewhere
There is no need for me to go back to review analysis on Herbert. I’m agreeing with you on basically every point, I’m just asking you to what degree you think each coach is responsible for Herbert’s development? I would say in general, Herbert was going to be a great rookie regardless of coaching, but since you’re making the argument that these coaches should get more credit than some of us are willing to give, how much then?

I think the only disconnect it seems is how much credit should coaching get.. My answer is collectively the coaches should have gotten more credit than what they did. Rarely, if ever, have I come across this. I am also not sure if I ever have come across a situation like Herbert’s where a QB has an unexpected jump in development since college and the coaching staff is never even mentioned as a contributing factor, or mentioned very little. No way am I implying that the previous coaching staff should have been glorified, which is silly also, but there could have been more talk of this.

There was a play that Steichen called due to coverage I believe against the Raiders and the result was a long completion in OT that set up the winning TD. This is only an example of a single event where this could have mentioned more. I am also sure that the offense was modified from Rivers to fit Herbert, which again was very rarely mentioned as to the what and why for these changes. Off script plays were also another aspect that got very little talk or analysis in which the Chargers worked on and was particularly helpful when Herbert was pressured.

These were contributing factors for Herbert’s success. I think it is foolish to try and pinpoint how much coaching contributed to Herbert’s success, which is literally impossible to know for certain and without bias, so all I am disappointed in is the limited info out there as to how much the offense changed over the previous year and to why.. if that makes any sense, including the injection of more speed on offense, which certainly played more to Herbert’s strengths versus Rivers.

[gzubeck]

Herbert Interview and about family influences...

[21&500]

I think the only disconnect it seems is how much credit should coaching get.. My answer is collectively the coaches should have gotten more credit than what they did. Rarely, if ever, have I come across this. I am also not sure if I ever have come across a situation like Herbert’s where a QB has an unexpected jump in development since college and the coaching staff is never even mentioned as a contributing factor, or mentioned very little. No way am I implying that the previous coaching staff should have been glorified, which is silly also, but there could have been more talk of this.

There was a play that Steichen called due to coverage I believe against the Raiders and the result was a long completion in OT that set up the winning TD. This is only an example of a single event where this could have mentioned more. I am also sure that the offense was modified from Rivers to fit Herbert, which again was very rarely mentioned as to the what and why for these changes. Off script plays were also another aspect that got very little talk or analysis in which the Chargers worked on and was particularly helpful when Herbert was pressured.

These were contributing factors for Herbert’s success. I think it is foolish to try and pinpoint how much coaching contributed to Herbert’s success, which is literally impossible to know for certain and without bias, so all I am disappointed in is the limited info out there as to how much the offense changed over the previous year and to why.. if that makes any sense, including the injection of more speed on offense, which certainly played more to Herbert’s strengths versus Rivers.

I say disconnect because in every post prior to this, you seem to counter points im not making, so I’m suspecting im not coming off clearly.
I think we agree on a lot, but as foolish as it would be to quantify how much coaching has helped JH, I think it’s appropriate to ask for some kind of assessment of the matter if you’re saying that people aren’t talking about the coaching more and/or giving credit. Well, how much credit would you like us to give?
Like I said before, I think JH balls out with mediocre coaching primarily because he is that special of an athlete and character, iow, I don’t think Lynn of Steichen had a positive enough impact that I feel we’re losing something we can’t get with another mediocre coach.

but again, I’m willing to second guess that stance if there is some evidence as soon as this season, sophomore slumps are common but if it looks like JH is regressing while Goff and (where is Stitch?) suddenly look to progress.

[BoltUp InLA]

I say disconnect because in every post prior to this, you seem to counter points im not making, so I’m suspecting im not coming off clearly.
I think we agree on a lot, but as foolish as it would be to quantify how much coaching has helped JH, I think it’s appropriate to ask for some kind of assessment of the matter if you’re saying that people aren’t talking about the coaching more and/or giving credit. Well, how much credit would you like us to give?
Like I said before, I think JH balls out with mediocre coaching primarily because he is that special of an athlete and character, iow, I don’t think Lynn of Steichen had a positive enough impact that I feel we’re losing something we can’t get with another mediocre coach.

but again, I’m willing to second guess that stance if there is some evidence as soon as this season, sophomore slumps are common but if it looks like JH is regressing while Goff and (where is Stitch?) suddenly look to progress.

I think we are still at a stand still here, which is absolutely OK.. I gave examples previously that I was surprised was rarely if ever mentioned. I agree that the previous coaching staff was 'mediocre' as you put it. I think where we disagree is that Herbert with his special talent / skillset thrived beyond what he ever showed in college on a consistent basis. His competition in college was nowhere near what he faced going up against teams like TB and KC defenses. He certainly improved since then.

Even though House may have helped with his fundamentals some, the Chargers coaching staff was able to convey their play book to him in a way that connected with him, even more so than at the college level. He seemed to have mastered, at least the offense that he was given. You can't underestimate that part of it. Herbert is a smart guy and is an exceptionally talented guy, but he did not consistently play at a high level during his college days or he would not have been so polarizing as a prospect to many of the analysts out there. Kurt Warner even had Jacob Eason rated as a higher prospect.

You can be at odds with the previous coaching staff, and that part I completely understand, but even Herbert himself has repeatedly thanked various coaches throughout the season and after the season as well. I think of Herbert as an honorable person, so I refuse to believe that he would have repeatedly thanked and praised them if he did not mean it. It's one thing to know your playbook, but it's a completely different story to know it so well that you play your very best football in your first year going up against NFL players week in and week out.

[21&500]

I think we are still at a stand still here, which is absolutely OK.. I gave examples previously that I was surprised was rarely if ever mentioned. I agree that the previous coaching staff was 'mediocre' as you put it. I think where we disagree is that Herbert with his special talent / skillset thrived beyond what he ever showed in college on a consistent basis. His competition in college was nowhere near what he faced going up against teams like TB and KC defenses. He certainly improved since then.

Even though House may have helped with his fundamentals some, the Chargers coaching staff was able to convey their play book to him in a way that connected with him, even more so than at the college level. He seemed to have mastered, at least the offense that he was given. You can't underestimate that part of it. Herbert is a smart guy and is an exceptionally talented guy, but he did not consistently play at a high level during his college days or he would not have been so polarizing as a prospect to many of the analysts out there. Kurt Warner even had Jacob Eason rated as a higher prospect.

You can be at odds with the previous coaching staff, and that part I completely understand, but even Herbert himself has repeatedly thanked various coaches throughout the season and after the season as well. I think of Herbert as an honorable person, so I refuse to believe that he would have repeatedly thanked and praised them if he did not mean it. It's one thing to know your playbook, but it's a completely different story to know it so well that you play your very best football in your first year going up against NFL players week in and week out.

I acknowledge the jump in performance, I think many others have voiced many valid reasons other than our coaches were able to convey to Herbert the playbook
1. coaches at Oregon weren’t very good/didn’t challenge JH. Or even if they were adequate perhaps two...
2. JH put more effort into his great academic career than most other qbs do and thus tool attention away from the otherwise quality coaching he got at Oregon
or
I don’t think this has much to do with me being at odds with anyone, but it certainly aligns with the perspective that Lynn and Steichen were not good coaches, so you can’t blame me for things making sense to me.

and ya Herbert is a great guy but he also had heaping praise for Tevi, so I wouldn’t put much stock in Herbert the talent evaluator, moreso Herbert the nice guy who knows exactly the professional and classy thing to say every time, it’s one of his most charming characteristics

[gzubeck]

I think we are still at a stand still here, which is absolutely OK.. I gave examples previously that I was surprised was rarely if ever mentioned. I agree that the previous coaching staff was 'mediocre' as you put it. I think where we disagree is that Herbert with his special talent / skillset thrived beyond what he ever showed in college on a consistent basis. His competition in college was nowhere near what he faced going up against teams like TB and KC defenses. He certainly improved since then.

Even though House may have helped with his fundamentals some, the Chargers coaching staff was able to convey their play book to him in a way that connected with him, even more so than at the college level. He seemed to have mastered, at least the offense that he was given. You can't underestimate that part of it. Herbert is a smart guy and is an exceptionally talented guy, but he did not consistently play at a high level during his college days or he would not have been so polarizing as a prospect to many of the analysts out there. Kurt Warner even had Jacob Eason rated as a higher prospect.

You can be at odds with the previous coaching staff, and that part I completely understand, but even Herbert himself has repeatedly thanked various coaches throughout the season and after the season as well. I think of Herbert as an honorable person, so I refuse to believe that he would have repeatedly thanked and praised them if he did not mean it. It's one thing to know your playbook, but it's a completely different story to know it so well that you play your very best football in your first year going up against NFL players week in and week out.

I'm going to break it down for you guys debating...

1) 50% Herbert....meaning he took advantage of all external advice from QB professional + his own innate Talents...
2) 15% Internal coaching talent Like Pep + Stitch (Lynn is breakeven as he took away as much as he gave)
3) 35% Better receiving core than he had in college (KA, HH, MW, Guyton etc.) gave him the confidence to sling it to them downfield with a good chance of catching it versus letting the ball bounce off their face masks....

:2cents:

[21&500]

I'm going to break it down for you guys debating...

1) 50% Herbert....meaning he took advantage of all external advice from QB professional + his own innate Talents...
2) 15% Internal coaching talent Like Pep + Stitch (Lynn is breakeven as he took away as much as he gave)
3) 35% Better receiving core than he had in college (KA, HH, MW, Guyton etc.) gave him the confidence to sling it to them downfield with a good chance of catching it versus letting the ball bounce off their face masks....

:2cents:

Haha I completely forgot the abysmal wr corps he was working with at Oregon
I have a feeling we’re in for a real treat this season
Herbert’s sophomore season will rival Patrick Mahomes’
he had to be held back weight training with his OLmen in college
who knows, maybe Herbert packs on 5lbs of muscle and really lays into LBers