Justin Herbert - Bolts Franchise QB Official Discussion

[21&500]

So which coach isn’t getting enough credit for Herbert’s development? Lynn, Pep or Steichen? And in what order are they all most responsible for?
Does john beck get any credit for being the first post college qb coach to train Herbert or is it only our 3 QB whisperers?
should we expect a regression from Herbert beyond an average one we see from second year qbs?
you know, now that he’s without the quality of coaching he was receiving from the magical 3
here I am foolishly hoping for Herbert to continue his development when in reality it will be Goff reaping all this knowledge first hand from Lynn
and Murray in Philly and whoever the hell starts in Houston with Steichen

is it too late to select qb at 13?

[Scoregon]

Your sarcasm made me laugh 21, and as a long-time Herbert fan/observer, I mostly agree with your perspective. If I were doling out credit for various coaches, the order would be Beck, Pep, Steichen, Lynn. This is based on comments from Herbert along the way and various stories written throughout the entirety of the draft prep, post draft/preseason, and season.

First of all, I think based on how well Justin played right away, with the KC, Tampa, NO games as 3 of his first 4, you can pretty much cross Lynn off the list. The big leap happened before he became the starting quarterback and if anything, Lynn impeded that process by giving him virtually no first team reps before that point. This also probably limits credit to Steichen, as he was likely part of that decision making with Lynn. It is possible he was being told what to do by Lynn and that he imparted a fair bit of coaching on the system to Herbert during zoom calls and training camp, so he certainly had some role.

The impressive early performances with basically no first team work and the stories/interviews with Herbert, point to Beck and Pep as the biggest influences. It was pretty clear that Hebert made big strides in the pre-draft process with both his fundamental mechanics/accuracy and with under center footwork that he never used his entire Oregon career. I mean the guy rarely had significant footwork issues starting from game 2 on after never playing from under center in his life. That is impressive and didn't happen in a limited training camp with no preseason. This and some stories about Beck working on the mental side, lead me to believe he had the biggest influence. I do think Pep would be next in line here, as Justin has talked about appreciating Pep both coaching him hard and keeping him in a good frame of mind during the wild ride that was this season. I would also assume that whatever mechanics/footwork improvements were made or solidified with the Chargers were largely Pep's doing.

The only thing that makes me question Pep's role a touch is that Staley didn't retain him. I get that he wanted people from top offenses and so Day fit, but if Herbert/Telesco were emphasizing to Staley how important Pep was to Justin personally and to his development, I have a feeling he would have stayed on, similar to Bosa's favorite coach, Giff Smith, being retained.

[21&500]

Your sarcasm made me laugh 21, and as a long-time Herbert fan/observer, I mostly agree with your perspective. If I were doling out credit for various coaches, the order would be Beck, Pep, Steichen, Lynn. This is based on comments from Herbert along the way and various stories written throughout the entirety of the draft prep, post draft/preseason, and season.

First of all, I think based on how well Justin played right away, with the KC, Tampa, NO games as 3 of his first 4, you can pretty much cross Lynn off the list. The big leap happened before he became the starting quarterback and if anything, Lynn impeded that process by giving him virtually no first team reps before that point. This also probably limits credit to Steichen, as he was likely part of that decision making with Lynn. It is possible he was being told what to do by Lynn and that he imparted a fair bit of coaching on the system to Herbert during zoom calls and training camp, so he certainly had some role.

The impressive early performances with basically no first team work and the stories/interviews with Herbert, point to Beck and Pep as the biggest influences. It was pretty clear that Hebert made big strides in the pre-draft process with both his fundamental mechanics/accuracy and with under center footwork that he never used his entire Oregon career. I mean the guy rarely had significant footwork issues starting from game 2 on after never playing from under center in his life. That is impressive and didn't happen in a limited training camp with no preseason. This and some stories about Beck working on the mental side, lead me to believe he had the biggest influence. I do think Pep would be next in line here, as Justin has talked about appreciating Pep both coaching him hard and keeping him in a good frame of mind during the wild ride that was this season. I would also assume that whatever mechanics/footwork improvements were made or solidified with the Chargers were largely Pep's doing.

The only thing that makes me question Pep's role a touch is that Staley didn't retain him. I get that he wanted people from top offenses and so Day fit, but if Herbert/Telesco were emphasizing to Staley how important Pep was to Justin personally and to his development, I have a feeling he would have stayed on, similar to Bosa's favorite coach, Giff Smith, being retained.

Agree on all points
Beck and Pep appear to be primary responsible for Herbert’s transition to the pros, but I think if he had a different HC and OC that Herbert would largely have a similar impact as a rookie, the kid is special.

If I’m under crediting Lynn and Steichen, I expect to see a few signs in 2021, but at this point I don’t see any reason to believe either did an extraordinary job that any other HC or OC couldn’t have done. So thank you Lynn and Steichen for your work, and a thank you to any random butterfly effect that helped mold Herbert into the machine he is.

[chargeroo]

As a long time Ducks fan I'm well aware of the improvement since his Oregon days. The changes to his footwork were noticeable to me in the first start against the Chiefs. I have to think Beck had a lot to do with that - he worked with him during the longer offseason.
Herbert has often praised Steichen and Pep so I assume they also worked with him a lot.

I'm not sure who should get the most credit - maybe the most credit should go to Justin himself?

[Bearded14YourPleasure]

For me the week 15 Raider game made it obvious that Lynn was holding back Herbert. Herbert had been killing the Raiders all game long, I think he had over 250 yards going into the 4th quarter, but the game was tied and on our last 2 drives in the 4th Herbert has 2 pass attempts one incomplete and one for a sack. I distinctly remember wondering why in the world was Lynn taking the ball out of Herbert’s hands in a tie game when he was playing so great. Luckily he got a chance in OT to win the game but that was the moment where it became undeniable for me that Lynn didn’t truly understand the player that had fallen into his lap and just how fortunate he was.

[Boltjolt]

As a long time Ducks fan I'm well aware of the improvement since his Oregon days. The changes to his footwork were noticeable to me in the first start against the Chiefs. I have to think Beck had a lot to do with that - he worked with him during the longer offseason.
Herbert has often praised Steichen and Pep so I assume they also worked with him a lot.

I'm not sure who should get the most credit - maybe the most credit should go to Justin himself?

Leads me to believe the Oregon coaches aren't that good.
I often said he has all the tools but needed a lot work and he had bad footwork. Night and day from then to this season.
The coaches deserve credit, whichever worked with him the most but Justin himself deserves credit as well for being easily coachable.

Tua obviously needs more time and his arm don't look that great in the NFL. I do believe the NFL football is slightly bigger than the college ball as well. Not 100% but think I read that some time ago.

[Bearded14YourPleasure]

Leads me to believe the Oregon coaches aren't that good.
I often said he has all the tools but needed a lot work and he had bad footwork. Night and day from then to this season.
The coaches deserve credit, whichever worked with him the most but Justin himself deserves credit as well for being easily coachable.

Tua obviously needs more time and his arm don't look that great in the NFL. I do believe the NFL football is slightly bigger than the college ball as well. Not 100% but think I read that some time ago.

Which coaches? The Helfrich staff of his Freshman campaign? Taggart staff of his Sophomore campaign? Cristobal staff of his Junior and Senior campaign? I do think it’s fair to blame the coaches to some degree but Herbert was also a victim of the coaching carousel that occurred during his 4 years there. There’s also his relative lack of experience compared to most QB prospects nowadays. Most of these high level prospects are doing camps and 7 on 7 football year around now. Then you also have Herbert’s commitment to his own education which isn’t too prevalent in student athletes in the modern era.

I think a huge factor in the unexpected success for Herbert was this was truly the first time he’s fully committed himself to football alone. Add some experience and another year of working on the intricacies of the position and I think we will see even more growth.

[BoltUp InLA]

So which coach isn’t getting enough credit for Herbert’s development? Lynn, Pep or Steichen? And in what order are they all most responsible for?
Does john beck get any credit for being the first post college qb coach to train Herbert or is it only our 3 QB whisperers?
should we expect a regression from Herbert beyond an average one we see from second year qbs?
you know, now that he’s without the quality of coaching he was receiving from the magical 3
here I am foolishly hoping for Herbert to continue his development when in reality it will be Goff reaping all this knowledge first hand from Lynn
and Murray in Philly and whoever the hell starts in Houston with Steichen

is it too late to select qb at 13?

This is not an all or nothing type of debate. If it was all Beck, then there would be more correlation with the success of all the QBs he has worked with in the past. Not all QBs that he has worked with have had the same amount of success.

I believe it was a collective effort that went well with Herbert himself. I also think culture plays a role as well. There was much more locker room chatter with the promotion of Tua than with Herbert, although Taylor was a very well liked and received captain of the team, similarly as Fitz in some ways.

Again, I will specifically use the word 'Collective' to describe this involving many others as well. I have always liked Herbert, but there were concerns about his play when he was coming out last year. And as well as he played overall, PFF only shows that he still must improve in certain areas for a better chance at sustainability, which I agree with. Even looking back at his college career where he somewhat peaked his sophomore year and may have even regressed some his junior year, Herbert is not yet a finished product.

I do not think PFF has any thing against Herbert personally. I like the Staley hire and I like the success Lombardi has had with other QBs, so in no way is this an indictment against the new coaching staff either.

[21&500]

This is not an all or nothing type of debate. If it was all Beck, then there would be more correlation with the success of all the QBs he has worked with in the past. Not all QBs that he has worked with have had the same amount of success.

I believe it was a collective effort that went well with Herbert himself. I also think culture plays a role as well. There was much more locker room chatter with the promotion of Tua than with Herbert, although Taylor was a very well liked and received captain of the team, similarly as Fitz in some ways.

Again, I will specifically use the word 'Collective' to describe this involving many others as well. I have always liked Herbert, but there were concerns about his play when he was coming out last year. And as well as he played overall, PFF only shows that he still must improve in certain areas for a better chance at sustainability, which I agree with. Even looking back at his college career where he somewhat peaked his sophomore year and may have even regressed some his junior year, Herbert is not yet a finished product.

I do not think PFF has any thing against Herbert personally. I like the Staley hire and I like the success Lombardi has had with other QBs, so in no way is this an indictment against the new coaching staff either.

I agree about Beck, in fact my general position is that Herbert’s leap from college to pros has infinitely more to do with Herbert himself than anyone. He is a mature kid who understood his responsibilities as a student athlete and took them seriously, now he is a full-time professional football player and since that moment has been “relentlessly seeking improvement”
You’re right, this isn’t an all or nothing argument.
Frankly there’s not enough specifics arguments being made so I don’t want to go back and forth about what you or I meant, bottom line for me, is that based on your posts on the subject, I think you’re giving too much credit to these coaches and not enough to Herbert himself.
But if you’re arguing that some (like me) aren’t giving enough due credit to Lynn and company for Herbert’s development, then I think it’s fair to ask how much credit does each deserve and using the word “collective” isn’t an answer. If we want to say it’s collective, I am more willing to give Herbert’s high school coach more credit for planting the seeds about football character and how to maximize future professional coaching, than Lynn.
If Lynn coaches Goff up better than his crap 2020 outing than I will be willing to acknowledge that. Goff doesn’t have to be as good as he was in his superbowl year under McVay, just significantly better than 2020, so the bar is fairly low. If he does, and Lynn helped him do that, I’ll be willing to say Lynn may have had an under-appreciated influence on Herbert’s development
but the evidence isn’t there just yet.

[BoltUp InLA]

I agree about Beck, in fact my general position is that Herbert’s leap from college to pros has infinitely more to do with Herbert himself than anyone. He is a mature kid who understood his responsibilities as a student athlete and took them seriously, now he is a full-time professional football player and since that moment has been “relentlessly seeking improvement”
You’re right, this isn’t an all or nothing argument.
Frankly there’s not enough specifics arguments being made so I don’t want to go back and forth about what you or I meant, bottom line for me, is that based on your posts on the subject, I think you’re giving too much credit to these coaches and not enough to Herbert himself.
But if you’re arguing that some (like me) aren’t giving enough due credit to Lynn and company for Herbert’s development, then I think it’s fair to ask how much credit does each deserve and using the word “collective” isn’t an answer. If we want to say it’s collective, I am more willing to give Herbert’s high school coach more credit for planting the seeds about football character and how to maximize future professional coaching, than Lynn.
If Lynn coaches Goff up better than his crap 2020 outing than I will be willing to acknowledge that. Goff doesn’t have to be as good as he was in his superbowl year under McVay, just significantly better than 2020, so the bar is fairly low. If he does, and Lynn helped him do that, I’ll be willing to say Lynn may have had an under-appreciated influence on Herbert’s development
but the evidence isn’t there just yet.

And please do not forget that there are many QBs that were smart and had enough talent, but were not able to make it, or at least not play at a high enough level. All QBs are limited in some fashion, unless they were the few highly polished QBs at the collegiate level like Burrow, to their circumstances, specifically involving the team that selected them. The culture, QB teaching of the team's offensive plays in a way that really connects, and scheme all play a role just as well.

Please go back and review many of the analysis on Herbert, especially review the film where those analysts were commenting on. There is certainly a reason for those analysis. Beck alone does not fix all of that and Beck alone is not privy to the Chargers playbook. Herbert, just as many QBs are smart and solid people overall, but not every QB will flourish as Herbert did. Yes, it certainly starts with Herbert himself, but it goes much further than that, particularly early on in his career.

[BoltUp InLA]

And please do not forget that there are many QBs that were smart and had enough talent, but were not able to make it, or at least not play at a high enough level. All QBs are limited in some fashion, unless they were the few highly polished QBs at the collegiate level like Burrow, to their circumstances, specifically involving the team that selected them. The culture, QB teaching of the team's offensive plays in a way that really connects, and scheme all play a role just as well.

Please go back and review many of the analysis on Herbert, especially review the film where those analysts were commenting on. There is certainly a reason for those analysis. Beck alone does not fix all of that and Beck alone is not privy to the Chargers playbook. Herbert, just as many QBs are smart and solid people overall, but not every QB will flourish as Herbert did. Yes, it certainly starts with Herbert himself, but it goes much further than that, particularly early on in his career.

And please note that I did not mention Lynn by name once, since it is literally impossible to know where Pip and Steichen fit into that, which I would assume much greater than Lynn.

[CivilBolt]

For me the week 15 Raider game made it obvious that Lynn was holding back Herbert. Herbert had been killing the Raiders all game long, I think he had over 250 yards going into the 4th quarter, but the game was tied and on our last 2 drives in the 4th Herbert has 2 pass attempts one incomplete and one for a sack. I distinctly remember wondering why in the world was Lynn taking the ball out of Herbert’s hands in a tie game when he was playing so great. Luckily he got a chance in OT to win the game but that was the moment where it became undeniable for me that Lynn didn’t truly understand the player that had fallen into his lap and just how fortunate he was.

Yup, Lynn did it before with PR back in 2017. It was when we lost four in a row to start the season. We were a run heavy team. We started winning games after Lynn took the handcuff off from PR and allowed him to audible out on some plays and pass more.