Justin Herbert - Bolts Franchise QB Official Discussion

[21&500]

Herbert got a lot of undeserved shit but has everything you would want in a franchise QB. Oregon is kinda my team in cfb (I say kinda because I’m not a hardcore cfb fan) and I think he’s a lot closer to Wentz than he is to Gabbert. Oregon had no real weapons around him and favored an offense that didn’t really show off Herberts talents. There’s not a throw he can’t make. He was a little inconsistent with his accuracy but the draft is all about projection, and Herbert has just as much talent as the QBs taken ahead of him. I also think he’ll be more reliable than Tua as durability issues in college don’t typically disappear playing against bigger and faster dudes in the NFL.

yup.
you know we've been spoiled at the QB position if we can be critical of spending just 1 high draft pick on a big, mobile, healthy, smart, 4-year starting QB who projects to develop with better coaching, pro scheme and weapons.

[SuperCharged]

Excellent breakdown of NFL QB play and the top 2020 prospects skillset and college situations.

Thanks for sharing. That is basically EXACTLY why I didn't want Tua. I believe he's a product of the Alabama system. This made me feel more comfortable with the Herbert pick.

[Old Marine]

We will have to see if this kid has anything to offer this year but I doubt it. 6.9.1

[Fleet]

We will have to see if this kid has anything to offer this year but I doubt it. 6.9.1

Cant be. OMG.

[Steve]

The problem with the pistol is that the RB is coming down the pipe full speed which makes it hard to cut back so blocking has to be good. The RB is basically going down a pre-defined track. You won't get many negative running plays from the pistol but explosion plays are also limited since it handicaps the RBs ability to improvise. It can be run to either side without tipping your hand pre-snap like you said. The other aspect I don't like about the pistol is that play action is kinda messy. There's the snap to contend with and the RB is coming down fast. There's a real precision to the timing by the QB and RB and not much room for error. The RBs must have perfect steps. Remember the QB is usually closer to the center than the shotgun so high snaps or snaps to the left or the right throw off the timing. Bad snaps also lead to more turnovers compared to the shotgun due to less reaction time. RPOs are possible but typically limit the QB to one read due to the aforementioned timing and line of sight issues as the QB is turning to the left or right to fake. In contrast, the shotgun is a bit easier to execute play action as the RB is coming from the side instead of behind, does not have as much build up speed, the QB is deeper in the shotgun, doesn't turn his back to the D as much, and has better line of sight. Fewer timing issues overall. It's fine to have the pistol in the playbook but I wouldn't make it a major part of the offense. It also helps if the QB runs once in awhile so the D doesn't tee off on the RB. Oregon never ran from under center and it's much easier to run play action from under center from a ball handling and timing perspective. Herbert will adapt to playing under center fairly quickly IMO.

The problem with the pistol is that the RB is coming down the pipe full speed which makes it hard to cut back so blocking has to be good. - any RB not able to cut at full speed is not going to make it long as an NFL RB.

The RB is basically going down a pre-defined track. You won't get many negative running plays from the pistol but explosion plays are also limited since it handicaps the RBs ability to improvise. - when the RB hits the step past the QB, he has to be prepared to make a cut and can either bend it backside or stay frontside. Again, I don't have any idea what you are watching, but it is EXACTLY the same backfield action as "I" formation/Ace backfield action that NFL teams have been using forever. College RB generally lack the speed, quickness and vision to be successful at it, but that is the difference between the NFL and FBS college.

It can be run to either side without tipping your hand pre-snap like you said. The other aspect I don't like about the pistol is that play action is kinda messy. - NFL defenders don't read the ball, they read the blocking. Front 7 defenders read blockers and the secondary reads the receivers release. That is why NFL QB don't fake worth a crap, they don't need to. Defenders are not looking for the ball, because the play will be over before they find it. NFL defenders key the blocking, and rely on their read to make the play. Players who only read the ball are the guys chasing every play from behind.

There's the snap to contend with and the RB is coming down fast. There's a real precision to the timing by the QB and RB and not much room for error. - If the college QB is not quick enough to take the snap and hand it off, then he is the problem, not the play. Again, something to drill thousands of times until he gets it right. Rivers was easily quick enough for all the pistol runs we did last few seasons. It works fine for the Chargers in the NFL. We need to run a lot more of it, not less.

The RBs must have perfect steps. - yep, it's the NFL.

Remember the QB is usually closer to the center than the shotgun so high snaps or snaps to the left or the right throw off the timing. - yep, the QB is closer, that's the point. There is enough room for backfield action and pulling/leading and motioning players to lead the play. It is a hybrid half shotgun/half I formation. If the snap is bad, it's the Center that is the problem, not the play. NFL teams rarely have more than about half a dozen bad snaps per year. Guys like Pouncey are borderline bad shotgun snappers, but that is the issue, not the play itself. Again watch the Ravens. Their entire offense is based on the Pistol action. Every NFL team uses the pistol, even if only to have it in the playbook to practice against it.

Bad snaps also lead to more turnovers compared to the shotgun due to less reaction time. RPOs are possible but typically limit the QB to one read due to the aforementioned timing and line of sight issues as the QB is turning to the left or right to fake. - Again, the issue is the execution, not the play. Again, the Chargers have run the play a fair amount the last few years, and we haven't had any real problems with the QB and RB exchange. As with all the plays we run, the OL sucks, but that is the OL. They suck at everything, so it is them, not the play.

In contrast, the shotgun is a bit easier to execute play action as the RB is coming from the side instead of behind, does not have as much build up speed, the QB is deeper in the shotgun, doesn't turn his back to the D as much, and has better line of sight. - You only threaten half the field, and the ball carrier is much more likely to lose yardage, because he is running parallel to the line initially, where the penetrating pass rushers can force the ball carrier

to lose ground

.

Fewer timing issues overall. It's fine to have the pistol in the playbook but I wouldn't make it a major part of the offense. It also helps if the QB runs once in awhile so the D doesn't tee off on the RB. Oregon never ran from under center and it's much easier to run play action from under center from a ball handling and timing perspective. Herbert will adapt to playing under center fairly quickly IMO - Again, in the NFL, we haven't had any issues that I recall in the last couple years in the pistol. I don't recall any NFL teams having any real trouble with it. The Ravens have built their offense around it, and the copy cat NFL will probably do more of it not less next season.

[Steve]

Herbert has a little hitch or pop when he throws often. It is part of his poor footwork and causes his passes to be off target badly. I hope we get a really good QB coach that can break him down and build him back up technically sound.

Some times he doesn't do the hitch, but his shoulders are in bad position, and it takes so long for him to adjust the different parts of his throw, that the timing is just way off. He also opens his hips too wide, so he is not stepping directly into the throw. That is when he even bothers, because he often steps back away from any pressure, and he is going to have to learn to hold his ground and step into the pressure. And yes, it is going to hurt sometimes.

Again Bill Walsh, Joe Montana and Steve Young, all used to swear that they would watch the game first, just from watching the QB footwork, and you could tell how the game went. If the footwork was good, the rest of it was so automatic, that they KNEW if was going to work. NFL QB have to get it set, but they ALWAYS have to work on it, year after year. It never is a thing you can take for granted.

Hebert also does that stupid ball flip when he is in the pocket. When you are playing catch and warming up, fine. We all used to do it when I was in HS. But we all got extra sprints a couple of days when someone got sloppy carrying the ball in a game. There was no fumble, but that is how important ball security was. They aren't going to do that to Hebert, but I am sure they will find something creative if he does it.

[Steve]

The downside is exactly what your post says, I think we’re wildcard contenders at best this season. So why not play him if not Wk1, at least half the season? You can only improve so much in practice, game reps either gets you where you need to be or it you don’t “have” it. I can’t see where in anyone’s mind it wouldn’t be better for him to have some starts under his belt going into 2021?

You are assuming that the only part of the game he has to learn is the mental aspect. If he has to unlearn his bad habits and then learn the mental part, it is probably going to take more than half a season. Again, look at the list of QB who have sat a year or more. Hall of Fame, longer term starters... Look at the guys thrown to the wolves .. a few make it, but all of them have better mechanics than Hebert. And so, so many of the guys who play early just never, every play well. How much of that is simply having their confidence broken and never regained. Think quicksand (The replacements - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3O-kYwM8qY )

[beachcomber]

Herbert got a lot of undeserved shit but has everything you would want in a franchise QB. Oregon is kinda my team in cfb (I say kinda because I’m not a hardcore cfb fan) and I think he’s a lot closer to Wentz than he is to Gabbert. Oregon had no real weapons around him and favored an offense that didn’t really show off Herberts talents. There’s not a throw he can’t make. He was a little inconsistent with his accuracy but the draft is all about projection, and Herbert has just as much talent as the QBs taken ahead of him. I also think he’ll be more reliable than Tua as durability issues in college don’t typically disappear playing against bigger and faster dudes in the NFL.

query for you and/or the Oregonians or others.... the common compares were Wentz and Josh Allen..... my question is what are the chances that he is some version of a Kaepernick or RG3.... someone that my help us go on a run into the playoffs, albeit is not the longterm answer @QB ?? should we continue to look @QB in the drafts ahead ??

[beachcomber]

will also add that the song remains the same.... Herbert will be only as good as his receivers (see Drew Brees during his Chargers tenure), and without a facsimile of an Oline, won't matter much how his footwork and the whatnot are developing.... we whiffed in round one.... LTs are not easy to come by.

and have to add as a qualifier, that that is obviously just a bittersweet draftnik leakin' a little emo from being spurned by the absence of linemen, and.... do think Telesco made the right pick for him as a Chargers GM.... (we all) live and learn,

[Antonio’s Gates]

query for you and/or the Oregonians or others.... the common compares were Wentz and Josh Allen..... my question is what are the chances that he is some version of a Kaepernick or RG3.... someone that my help us go on a run into the playoffs, albeit is not the longterm answer @QB ?? should we continue to look @QB in the drafts ahead ??

Lower than the one where he’s the long term answer.

[FoutsFan]

Some times he doesn't do the hitch, but his shoulders are in bad position, and it takes so long for him to adjust the different parts of his throw, that the timing is just way off. He also opens his hips too wide, so he is not stepping directly into the throw. That is when he even bothers, because he often steps back away from any pressure, and he is going to have to learn to hold his ground and step into the pressure. And yes, it is going to hurt sometimes.

Again Bill Walsh, Joe Montana and Steve Young, all used to swear that they would watch the game first, just from watching the QB footwork, and you could tell how the game went. If the footwork was good, the rest of it was so automatic, that they KNEW if was going to work. NFL QB have to get it set, but they ALWAYS have to work on it, year after year. It never is a thing you can take for granted.

Hebert also does that stupid ball flip when he is in the pocket. When you are playing catch and warming up, fine. We all used to do it when I was in HS. But we all got extra sprints a couple of days when someone got sloppy carrying the ball in a game. There was no fumble, but that is how important ball security was. They aren't going to do that to Hebert, but I am sure they will find something creative if he does it.

Funny you mention that. When I played every single off season camp or training camp we opened the same exact way. Working on our footwork. We would start with the basics, lining up under center and dropping back, and handing the ball off and pitches. Then we would work on our passing footwork and throwing motion. even though it was second nature we still went over the basics all the time. Sometimes I scratch my head and wonder if some of these programs do the basics like that?

[like54ninjas]

will also add that the song remains the same.... Herbert will be only as good as his receivers (see Drew Brees during his Chargers tenure), and without a facsimile of an Oline, won't matter much how his footwork and the whatnot are developing.... we whiffed in round one.... LTs are not easy to come by.

and have to add as a qualifier, that that is obviously just a bittersweet draftnik leakin' a little emo from being spurned by the absence of linemen, and.... do think Telesco made the right pick for him as a Chargers GM.... (we all) live and learn,

Lots of OT talent that could be had in 2021....

Sewell, Little, Young, Faalele, Jackson, Cosmi, Leatherwood, Hermanns, Jackson, and Munford all look to be 2021 top 100 prospects.