When Does Herbert Sit? - Justin Herbert Discussion

[sonorajim]

Agreed it’s important, but we have what we have. Can we agree the OL should be better than last year?

Adding two Pro Bowl/ championship level vets and coach makes no difference! This is the Chargers!
LOL! Of course we should be better on OL. That comes with no guarantees but definitely should be.

[blueman]

Well I’d hope since we spent the #6 overall pick JH and Tyrod was a 6th round pick who is a Journeyman.... That Herbert is already “better”

That’s the nutshell, just how fast can the kid get that good? Redo the mechanics, that takes reps. The more I read about him, the less time I think it’ll take. Guess we’ll see.

[Old Marine]

I bet he will redhsirt

[Hadl2Alworth]

I bet he will redhsirt

Hey Old Marine, how are you? Good to see you again.

[Steve]

Go back to page 4 of this thread, I broke down 39 QBs drafted (since 2008) in the 1st or WK1 starters. It basically breaks down to talent, the ones how have it starting early certainly hasn’t “stunted” their growth at all. I’ve stated my ideal situation would be JH getting 6-8 starts (ie: Jackson, Watson, Goff etc). I would like him to have “Real” game time headed into 2021. If Tyrod is able to keep them team in Wildcard contention this year, I can’t see them benching him. So in someways success this year, could hinder 2021. Interesting quandary to be in, but I do think the days of guys sitting for a complete year or especially 2 are over (especially a Top 10 pick). Tua likely sits half a year, but will start at some point. Burrow Wk1 and J. Love is in a unique position drafted bottom of round 1, behind an all time great (who is still playing well) and he’s a “project” to begin with.

First, better to use the post #, because users can change the number of posts on a page. This thread is only 3 pages long based on my settings. Second, you can put the link back to the post, so that people can follow it back. Like this (https://www.thepowderblues.com/forum...538#post991538)

The reason I didn't read it closely is that I think using starts is a flawed metric for success. It is certainly one measure, but Craig Whelihan has starts as a Charger QB did some other forgettable QB in the NFL. Some guys get starts even though the team would rather not start him. For example, AL and most of the posters on this board assume that Tyrod will start week 1, and he could get hurt. I just don't think it is the best way to judge a QB. Long term, total number of starts it would be a better metric, but again the younger guys don't have as many chances.

Sure Marriotta and WInston were very high picks and started from day 1. Both are backups now, and struggled on and off . That is the kind of thing I hope we can avoid. Gabbert, Ponder, Bortles have a ton of starts, but they suck balls. Again, I think we can avoid that, and a little slow and steady approach (I think) will help. Starting guys day 1 is kinda hit and miss. The guys who have great mechanics (Manning, Ryan, Luck, Wentz …) usually do OK, but Hebert isn't there yet.

Which brings me to another point. If you start a guy early, specifically behind our OL, and we have another rash of injuries, we really can't put Hebert back on the bench once he takes over. You can, but then his confidence takes a beating, and the locker room dynamics get funny (sometimes). So if we are back to last years OT (Baluga gets hurt), and Tevi is banged up again, do we really want to put Hebert out there to expose him to say Denver's pass rush? Maybe a team like Miami's pass rush, but not necessarily a good pass rush against a team who knows all our personnel inside and out. I am just saying we want to try to give him a good matchup to get him started in the right direction.

If there is a good matchup, and he has worked out his mechanical stuff and learned the playbook reasonably well, we can always go ahead and throw him in. Especially if the rest of the team is playing well. I like the idea of letting him spot play during the season, even if we don't start him. That is how Joe Montana got his early playing time. Builds confidence with both him and his teammates. But once he takes over as the full time starter, he gets all the ups and downs. We really don't want to bench him once he starts a game for the next 15 years or so. Once we fix his mechanics, fine, let him go in and struggle some. He has the tools to deal with the ups and downs then. As long as he isn't taking too bad a beating (don't want him broken), cause I get the sense Hebert may not be super in your face ready to punch people, but I bet he doesn't back down from getting hit.

I want Hebert to be the home run guy. I think, if we take our time, I think it can be almost a sure thing. As sure a thing as can be. He has his problems, but I think those can be mostly or totally fixed. I just don't think getting too hung up on the number of games he starts his rookie year is worth getting fussed about. But do it right, take the time, and he has HOF type tools.

[Lone Bolt]

I am all for sitting him for a year...have said so before. Let him work solid mechanics into his game, acclimate to the NFL and the QB room, let him pay his dues a bit...

However....if Tyrod really struggles, and with 3 or 4 games left in the year, we are out of the playoff race, then I would put him in. Let him get a taste for the speed of the game, take his lumps, and go into the next year with some film for the coaches and him to dissect...to help identify some problem areas...to give him focus for the work he needs next offseason.

Honestly, though...I don't see that happening. Unless we suffer another rash of injuries at key positions, I think our floor next year is competing for a wild card late in the season, finiishing somewhere between 8-8 and 10-6.

[AsaFLBoltfan]

First, better to use the post #, because users can change the number of posts on a page. This thread is only 3 pages long based on my settings. Second, you can put the link back to the post, so that people can follow it back. Like this (https://www.thepowderblues.com/forum...538#post991538)

The reason I didn't read it closely is that I think using starts is a flawed metric for success. It is certainly one measure, but Craig Whelihan has starts as a Charger QB did some other forgettable QB in the NFL. Some guys get starts even though the team would rather not start him. For example, AL and most of the posters on this board assume that Tyrod will start week 1, and he could get hurt. I just don't think it is the best way to judge a QB. Long term, total number of starts it would be a better metric, but again the younger guys don't have as many chances.

Sure Marriotta and WInston were very high picks and started from day 1. Both are backups now, and struggled on and off . That is the kind of thing I hope we can avoid. Gabbert, Ponder, Bortles have a ton of starts, but they suck balls. Again, I think we can avoid that, and a little slow and steady approach (I think) will help. Starting guys day 1 is kinda hit and miss. The guys who have great mechanics (Manning, Ryan, Luck, Wentz …) usually do OK, but Hebert isn't there yet.

Which brings me to another point. If you start a guy early, specifically behind our OL, and we have another rash of injuries, we really can't put Hebert back on the bench once he takes over. You can, but then his confidence takes a beating, and the locker room dynamics get funny (sometimes). So if we are back to last years OT (Baluga gets hurt), and Tevi is banged up again, do we really want to put Hebert out there to expose him to say Denver's pass rush? Maybe a team like Miami's pass rush, but not necessarily a good pass rush against a team who knows all our personnel inside and out. I am just saying we want to try to give him a good matchup to get him started in the right direction.

If there is a good matchup, and he has worked out his mechanical stuff and learned the playbook reasonably well, we can always go ahead and throw him in. Especially if the rest of the team is playing well. I like the idea of letting him spot play during the season, even if we don't start him. That is how Joe Montana got his early playing time. Builds confidence with both him and his teammates. But once he takes over as the full time starter, he gets all the ups and downs. We really don't want to bench him once he starts a game for the next 15 years or so. Once we fix his mechanics, fine, let him go in and struggle some. He has the tools to deal with the ups and downs then. As long as he isn't taking too bad a beating (don't want him broken), cause I get the sense Hebert may not be super in your face ready to punch people, but I bet he doesn't back down from getting hit.

I want Hebert to be the home run guy. I think, if we take our time, I think it can be almost a sure thing. As sure a thing as can be. He has his problems, but I think those can be mostly or totally fixed. I just don't think getting too hung up on the number of games he starts his rookie year is worth getting fussed about. But do it right, take the time, and he has HOF type tools.

I agree with most of what you are saying, the whole point of my bringing up # starts during rookie year. Is just to disprove this notion that guys sitting an entire year, is %100 not the norm anymore. It hasn’t been in over a decade, had nothing to do with success. In my opinion if we tell JH he’s the starter in 2021 and he doesn’t have a handful of starts under his belt. We are not properly preparing him, some of his “problems” can not be fixed in practice. He needs real game time speed/reps.

[Steve]

I agree with most of what you are saying, the whole point of my bringing up # starts during rookie year. Is just to disprove this notion that guys sitting an entire year, is %100 not the norm anymore. It hasn’t been in over a decade, had nothing to do with success. In my opinion if we tell JH he’s the starter in 2021 and he doesn’t have a handful of starts under his belt. We are not properly preparing him, some of his “problems” can not be fixed in practice. He needs real game time speed/reps.

So the QB sitting, you are right, in no way is that the norm. However, that is irrelevant, IMHO.

The question in my mind is that the best thing for Justin Hebert to prepare him to be the best NFL QB he can be?

I don't think playing him is until he fixes his mechanical issues (mostly footwork) is a good thing at all, so what everyone else does would simply be making the same mistake everyone else does.

Some QB come out of college and are better prepared to play than others. Payton Manning and Luck are the best examples. They have the mechanical thing pretty good. Not a lot for them to work on, no glaring bad habits. They also came from pro style offenses where they had gotten a lot of work as a starter, and gotten a lot of very good coaching coming up. Hebert has played in several different offenses, with a lot of different and varied coaching. It is all of the watered down, college pseudo spread crap that is not doing him a lot of favors in terms of asking him to identify coverages. College teams love 3 and 4 WR looks, because it vastly simplifies reading the D, now he is going to have to learn to make the reads from all kinds of different offensive formations. The NFL playbook is just a lot bigger. If you look hard, there are PDF's of NFL offenses and defenses on the internet (https://www.footballxos.com/free-foo...nfl-playbooks/). There is a lot in there, and there is a lot of stuff that players have to fill in the details in their meetings and in their own film study/play book study.

I disagree with the concept that a players problems can't be fixed in practice. That is where players learn to do things and where they refine things. If the point of your statement is that they can't learn everything, yeah, they have to play at some point. Kind of like school, at some point you have to do out and put the classroom (practice field) stuff into action. But he needs to be confident that when he goes back to pass in a game, the ball is go where he wants (more or less), the way he wants it (timing), and he knows the playbook well enough to not embarrass himself.

The playbook and learning to play QB has to be done on the field, and no one is denying it. But you just want him to have the correct foundational skills in place that when he goes out and doesn't have to fix everything he is doing on every other pass. At some point he is going to have to play to get better, you just want to get the stuff that can be fixed in practice done, so then he can focus on the parts that can only be learned on the field.

[blueman]

Upon more consideration, I think Herbie gets up to speed, fixed mechanics inclusive, much faster than any of us expect. JMHO.

[AsaFLBoltfan]

So the QB sitting, you are right, in no way is that the norm. However, that is irrelevant, IMHO.

The question in my mind is that the best thing for Justin Hebert to prepare him to be the best NFL QB he can be?

I don't think playing him is until he fixes his mechanical issues (mostly footwork) is a good thing at all, so what everyone else does would simply be making the same mistake everyone else does.

Some QB come out of college and are better prepared to play than others. Payton Manning and Luck are the best examples. They have the mechanical thing pretty good. Not a lot for them to work on, no glaring bad habits. They also came from pro style offenses where they had gotten a lot of work as a starter, and gotten a lot of very good coaching coming up. Hebert has played in several different offenses, with a lot of different and varied coaching. It is all of the watered down, college pseudo spread crap that is not doing him a lot of favors in terms of asking him to identify coverages. College teams love 3 and 4 WR looks, because it vastly simplifies reading the D, now he is going to have to learn to make the reads from all kinds of different offensive formations. The NFL playbook is just a lot bigger. If you look hard, there are PDF's of NFL offenses and defenses on the internet (https://www.footballxos.com/free-foo...nfl-playbooks/). There is a lot in there, and there is a lot of stuff that players have to fill in the details in their meetings and in their own film study/play book study.

I disagree with the concept that a players problems can't be fixed in practice. That is where players learn to do things and where they refine things. If the point of your statement is that they can't learn everything, yeah, they have to play at some point. Kind of like school, at some point you have to do out and put the classroom (practice field) stuff into action. But he needs to be confident that when he goes back to pass in a game, the ball is go where he wants (more or less), the way he wants it (timing), and he knows the playbook well enough to not embarrass himself.

The playbook and learning to play QB has to be done on the field, and no one is denying it. But you just want him to have the correct foundational skills in place that when he goes out and doesn't have to fix everything he is doing on every other pass. At some point he is going to have to play to get better, you just want to get the stuff that can be fixed in practice done, so then he can focus on the parts that can only be learned on the field.

I think we pretty much agree, but here is my problem with him sitting the entire year. If we can agree he will most certainly be WK1 starter in 2021, how can he properly prepared if he never sees game time this season? My ideal situation would be him starting the last 4-6 games (maybe more if they thought he was ready). So that he has a chance to be successful in 2021, not just learning as he goes.

[Steve]

With this season being what it is, I don't know how you say anything else. Fans will want to see him sooner rather than wait. You have to wit for the playbook and the mechanics, but once he gets over those hurdles (or even mostly over those hurdles) there is no reason to not play him. I just don't know how you put a timeline on that.

An experience NFL QB coach might be able to in a regular year, but are we going to have OTA's and TC? That is as many reps as a guy gets in the rest of the season, and he might not get all of those, we still have to get Tyrod ready to play. And every guy reacts differently. Some guys are inherently more efficient, some are more like the norm and some need more reps. Which is Hebert? I think we just have to wait and see.

Some of it is going to depend on Tyrod. Remember, KC might have been thinking of playing Mahommes sooner than they did until Alex Smith had a career year. Maybe Tyrod will have one of those years. Brees did the same with Rivers behind him. A lot less urgency to start a guy if the started in front of him is doing really well.

[Antonio’s Gates]

If the starting left tackle this season is coming internally, hopefully 2021.