Welcome Josh Palmer, WR, Tennessee (Pick #77)

[blueman]

Defenses were not concerned with Guyton: that's what that means. Bothering to get up and jam Guyton takes bodies away from Allen/Williams.

Mecole Hardman & Byron Pringle had the same huge cushion and separation rating....well superior to Tyreek Hill.

Do you think teams were more afraid of Byron Pringle?

Who the fuck is Byron Pringle? Sounds like a character in a Rankin Bass animated special.

[Guest]

Defenses were not concerned with Guyton: that's what that means. Bothering to get up and jam Guyton takes bodies away from Allen/Williams.

Mecole Hardman & Byron Pringle had the same huge cushion and separation rating....well superior to Tyreek Hill.

Do you think teams were more afraid of Byron Pringle?

I disagree, but applaud your effort to keep firing ridiculous arguments in an effort to denigrate Guyton.

First, defenses figured out that keeping Mahomes in the pocket and limiting long off schedule passes from outside the pocket was the ticket to containing the Chiefs, plus it helped in dealing with Tyreek Hill. Also, Hardman runs in the 4.3s and Pringle runs in the 4.4s. They have elite and slightly above average speed, respectively, in their own right. KC's WRs were in that respect very nearly the polar opposite of ours.

Second, everyone knew that for most of the season Lombardi was almost completely ignoring the deep passing game absent total defensive breakdowns (like Mike Williams' TDs against CLE). Herbert was at one point well into last season in the bottom 5 in air yards per attempt. Stafford had the same type of thing happen to him when Lombardi was the OC for DET and they had Calvin Johnson. Defenses were not playing off most of our WRs as a general rule. They were squatting on them (which cost PIT the game against us), though I suspect that the cushion bumped up a little later in the season as Lombardi finally dialed up some deep passes.

Third, when Palmer was in the game, presumably with the same Allen and Williams that were in the game when Guyton played, defenses were inspecting Palmer's jersey label by comparison to how they played against Guyton, which pretty much destroys your "attention to Allen/Williams" argument.

It is okay to admit that Guyton is fast and that defenses needed to give him a bigger cushion. Everyone already knows that that is the truth, so you do not need to carry on with the above quoted line of BS.

[dmac_bolt]

The average cushion for Guyton was 7 yards. Cushion is based on all snaps, not targeted snaps. FFS, was the turf monster preventing him getting off the line of scrimmage? Did a sudden hurricane prevent him from his free release? Do you now see the problem with this "can't get off the line of scrimmage" nonsense that has been suggested? It is a bunch of BS. The larger average cushion is inconsistent with the notion that the WR cannot get off of the line of scrimmage. Psst. There is no defender immediately in front of Guyton. SMH....

Equally absurd is the notion that defenders are not concerned with Guyton on underneath routes. Of course, they are concerned about Guyton catching the ball on underneath routes, but they are forced to play off of him because most of them cannot run with him and will get beat deep if they play too close to the line of scrimmage, so they make the wise choice of giving him a larger cushion.

Finally, I am really not sure what you are missing about Huntley. Unlike Stick, he has a legit NFL arm. His ability also to run with the ball is a strength, not a weakness that defenses may not be ready to account for if he enters in the middle of a game. I mean, under your thinking, I guess Bill Walsh and the 49ers were really stupid to sign Steve Young to backup Joe Montana. After all, he was a left handed QB that could run, very different than Montana. And the fact that the offense would operate a little differently under Young in terms of play distribution in your world must have meant that having Young was a disastrous decision, right? Do you see how weak your position is? SMH....

Young was a pocket passer. Montana was a pocket passer. Montana could run a bit early in his career too, not like Young but he scrambled and he definitely moved around in the pocket. Young was simply faster, bigger, stronger. He wasn’t the polar opposite of Montana and its ridiculous to try and claim he was. You specifically recommended QB2 be the opposite of Herbert. He was also Montana’s heir apparent, he was signed to take over the club, not just be a backup. The surprise was Montana performed a couple seasons longer than they anticipated and they couldn’t bench him when he’s winning divisions and playoff games.

Huntley is not a pocket pro set type of QB and you know it. Huntley is also no Steve Young. Stop with the bullshit disingenuous lies of omission and knowingly false comparisons. You know and you know that we know - show us the respect of being honest.

Guyton avg 18 YPC in 2020, 14 YPC in 2021. in 2022 he will only average 10 YPC. he is regressing back to his rookie result of zero and ergo - sucks. This is CC type of analysis

[DerwinBosa]

Finally, I am really not sure what you are missing about Huntley. Unlike Stick, he has a legit NFL arm. His ability also to run with the ball is a strength, not a weakness that defenses may not be ready to account for if he enters in the middle of a game. I mean, under your thinking, I guess Bill Walsh and the 49ers were really stupid to sign Steve Young to backup Joe Montana. After all, he was a left handed QB that could run, very different than Montana. And the fact that the offense would operate a little differently under Young in terms of play distribution in your world must have meant that having Young was a disastrous decision, right? Do you see how weak your position is? SMH....

Steve Young would have been a first-round pick in the 1984 NFL Draft if he hadn't signed the richest contract in pro football history with the USFL. He was a Heisman Trophy candidate who developed in the BYU offensive system that was coordinated by Mike Holmgren, who worked for Bill Walsh shortly thereafter. Huntley was an undrafted free agent who had nowhere near the talent or training Steve Young possessed coming out of college. There is no comparison between the two.

[Steve]

The average cushion for Guyton was 7 yards. Cushion is based on all snaps, not targeted snaps. FFS, was the turf monster preventing him getting off the line of scrimmage? Did a sudden hurricane prevent him from his free release? Do you now see the problem with this "can't get off the line of scrimmage" nonsense that has been suggested? It is a bunch of BS. The larger average cushion is inconsistent with the notion that the WR cannot get off of the line of scrimmage. Psst. There is no defender immediately in front of Guyton. SMH....

Equally absurd is the notion that defenders are not concerned with Guyton on underneath routes. Of course, they are concerned about Guyton catching the ball on underneath routes, but they are forced to play off of him because most of them cannot run with him and will get beat deep if they play too close to the line of scrimmage, so they make the wise choice of giving him a larger cushion.

Finally, I am really not sure what you are missing about Huntley. Unlike Stick, he has a legit NFL arm. His ability also to run with the ball is a strength, not a weakness that defenses may not be ready to account for if he enters in the middle of a game. I mean, under your thinking, I guess Bill Walsh and the 49ers were really stupid to sign Steve Young to backup Joe Montana. After all, he was a left handed QB that could run, very different than Montana. And the fact that the offense would operate a little differently under Young in terms of play distribution in your world must have meant that having Young was a disastrous decision, right? Do you see how weak your position is? SMH....

If they are forced to play off, why isn't Guyton making a ton of short catches or crossers? He played a lot more snaps that Palmer and yet had similar catches. Your logic seems to fail in that Palmer was getting the ball more frequently (or efficiently).

[Lefty2SLO]

I agree, but Palmer does not really have any "SOOO much more" traits. How does he win? What elite traits does he have? I can see those traits in players like Keenan Allen, Tyrell Williams, Mike Williams, Vincent Jackson, et cetera, a lot of which has nothing to do with speed, but what does Palmer have? And the struggle to answer that question is exactly why I do not think that he will ever emerge as a good starting option in the NFL.

So, Guyton and Palmer are both reserve quality players, but Guyton fits better with Allen and Williams than Palmer does based on Guyton adding the speed element that Williams and Allen do not have.

Palmer does not have outstandingly noticeable physical talent that jumps at you off the screen, he's a possession receiver like Allen (which is your point in regards to his fit in the offense), but I think he can develop into a guy like Cooper Kuup, Michael Thomas, Charlie Joyner, etc. Ask Fouts, Brees and Stafford if they think a guy like that is valuable. I can't recall a really good possession receiver that didn't take some time to develop - It's more about the mental process than the physical with guys like that. Let's see what we have in Palmer at the end of year 3.

All 3 of the guys I listed were not highly sought after; Kuup was viewed as a 'jack of all trades and master of none' and 'not explosive', and ran a blistering 4.62 40, Thomas was a 6th (???) round selection and tested slower than Palmer at 4.57, and Joyner was a defensive back before switching to wide receiver and was not top tier physically (except for heart). My point with the "sooo much more" traits comment is that while speed is an important component to a wide receives arsenal it's hardly the most important one. I agree that JG is faster than JP. He's also (much) faster than Cooper Kuup - do you think the Rams would swap straight up??

[Boltjolt]

There is still wiggle room for Chaincrusher here.....that is why this thread rules.

Guyton's first team was Dallas who signed him as a rookie free agent in 2019.

On that Dallas squad was:

1. Amari Cooper
2. Randall Cobb
3. Michael Gallup
4. Devin Smith
5. Cedrick Wilson
6. Tavon Austin

That's a stacked group...what earthly mortal could make that squad? You can only fault Guyton for being stupid and signing with Dallas.

So he came to the Chargers mid season and had no opportunity to get on the football field that year. What is there to use for comparison's sake?
He carefully honed his skills on the Charger practice squad and had his break out year in 2020.

Devin Smith has done next to nothing in the league and Austin is a bust.

His battle would be with Wilson who had his best season last year with 45 receptions but they chose to not keep Guyton.

[powderblueboy]

I disagree, but applaud your effort to keep firing ridiculous arguments in an effort to denigrate Guyton.

First, defenses figured out that keeping Mahomes in the pocket and limiting long off schedule passes from outside the pocket was the ticket to containing the Chiefs, plus it helped in dealing with Tyreek Hill. Also, Hardman runs in the 4.3s and Pringle runs in the 4.4s. They have elite and slightly above average speed, respectively, in their own right. KC's WRs were in that respect very nearly the polar opposite of ours.

Second, everyone knew that for most of the season Lombardi was almost completely ignoring the deep passing game absent total defensive breakdowns (like Mike Williams' TDs against CLE). Herbert was at one point well into last season in the bottom 5 in air yards per attempt. Stafford had the same type of thing happen to him when Lombardi was the OC for DET and they had Calvin Johnson. Defenses were not playing off most of our WRs as a general rule. They were squatting on them (which cost PIT the game against us), though I suspect that the cushion bumped up a little later in the season as Lombardi finally dialed up some deep passes.

Third, when Palmer was in the game, presumably with the same Allen and Williams that were in the game when Guyton played, defenses were inspecting Palmer's jersey label by comparison to how they played against Guyton, which pretty much destroys your "attention to Allen/Williams" argument.

It is okay to admit that Guyton is fast and that defenses needed to give him a bigger cushion. Everyone already knows that that is the truth, so you do not need to carry on with the above quoted line of BS.

Again, you purposefully misunderstand the point;
And then you strike up the band with your old melody, the deep shell against Mahomes.
We've heard it many times, what has it to do with the discussion?

The discussion was never one of comparing offenses, but of taking into consideration how defenses position & rotate coverage to take away key players,
and how this influences the amount of traffic any one receiver encounters out on a route; and hence the meaningless stats we are wasting our time discussing
have as much to do with lack of ability as ability.

Guyton, Pringle & Hardmon share three things: they are grade C type receivers who benefit from the cast around them; they have some speed (Hardmon has a lot);
and each not so coincidentally has tallied superior numbers for separation & cushion over the star receivers on the team.

This leads to one of 3 conclusions:

A. The stats were carelessly compiled and have little basis in fact .....for the sake of argument, we'll say no to this.

B. The stats are meaningful & Guyton/Pringle/Hardmon are in a meaningful way superior to the star receivers on the team.....and yet, Guyton resigned this offseason for a buck fifty.

C. The stats are meaningless and all it measures is the collective effort of defenses to take away a receiver, giving him as little space to operate as possible.
Guyton/Pringle/Hardmon run through a lot of vacant zones, and since they run sloppy routes, dbs sitting back can easily move up to break anything up in front of them.
If they do get the ball in space they are not dangerous and the only thing a db needs to fear is letting one of them get behind him.

Its as simple as that: defenses are fine giving them a lot of space to operate. In Guyton's case, with all that space, he's not converting short passes into big gains.

Shame on him!
:rimshot:

[dmac_bolt]

Did defenses figure out how to contain Mahomes and thereby limit Tyreek hill before or after he gained 1200+ yards last year?

[powderblueboy]

Devin Smith has done next to nothing in the league and Austin is a bust.

His battle would be with Wilson who had his best season last year with 45 receptions but they chose to not keep Guyton.

I vaguely remember making those points last year when talking about Guyton's ignominious exit from Dallas. I was wrong!

[dmac_bolt]

Steve Young would have been a first-round pick in the 1984 NFL Draft if he hadn't signed the richest contract in pro football history with the USFL. He was a Heisman Trophy candidate who developed in the BYU offensive system that was coordinated by Mike Holmgren, who worked for Bill Walsh shortly thereafter. Huntley was an undrafted free agent who had nowhere near the talent or training Steve Young possessed coming out of college. There is no comparison between the two.

Not just a first round pick, he was targeted by Cincy to be THE first pick in the draft, but he signed $40M instead with USFL. He left the dysfunctional USFL and signed with TB, who made him the first overall pick in the supplemental draft. Two time MVP, highest passer rating 6 times, 7x pro bowl, SB winner. Young = Huntley, obviously.

[richpjr]

This thread is great - 100+ pages and still going strong on a WR who is, barring injury, at best 3rd on the depth chart.