Joe Lombardi Discussion

[dmac_bolt]

You guys are all bitchin'. Group hug.

[Boltjolt]

The argument that we can only properly evaluate any coordinator if everyone is healthy is silly and tiresome.

Next year, Linsley goes down, they are stuck with Clapp at center,
and Lombo high fives himself because he is free to screw up and stick around for another year

The issue is not the rabble getting after Lombo because the Charger offense is not putting up 4 + tds each game;
the rabble is mutinous because this offense can't score points period in the 2nd half.

Salyer is a decent enough backup LT;
Herberts ribs seem well enough healed based on the Miami game alone;
very few NFL starters are 100 % at this point: most are playing through pain and injury.

That's true. Most do have pain or some sort of injury but I don't think there's really many players out there who continued playing through fractured rib cartilage. And really Herb shouldn't have but our backups are so crappy.
The 49ers third stringer seems to be well ahead of Stick at this point. Daniel has to be gone next year. Looks like his next career is in TV.

The Jets quarterback White,sat out two or three games with his rib injuries and he is a better than Wilson and they needed that guy because they're on the verge of elimination.

He's playing this week though

[dmac_bolt]

Fair response and I agree injuries more than anything are the cause. But the last few games they are missing only Slater, as important as he is. You have to go back to Herberts rookie season to find 2 games ina row he hasnt thrown a TD pass.

I do want to see Thor unleashed!! Justin Herbert has the smarts and every physical tool you could want ina QB. There is no reason he cant be running an offence that scares the shit out of opposing defences and is next to unstoppable. Defences dont have to worry about the deep ball with this team, they defend the short pass. Chris Simms calls it glue all over the place and has shown plays where your have all 4 Charger receivers running short curl routes with defenders all over them.

I do agree with NFL analysts that this offence is too slow. Certain plays when Herbert does have time in the pocket these WRs have trouble getting seperation, even Keenan. Herbert has to thread the ball into too many tight windows. He doesnt have a good running game and with protection issues is asked to do more than just about any QB in the league. There is too much on Herberts shoulders, he almost has to play perfect every week.

How about getting him a WR like Burrow has that can take an 8 yard pass 60 yards. this offence has no YAC. Maybe dump off to Ekler but thats it.

In perfect conditions Lombardi is an ok OC, but you wont convince me there is not a better OC out there that can tap into Hebert's unlimited potential. I mean this QB could really dominate the league and close the gap with Mahomes.

For all the years he was in NO, Joe was never elevated to OC there, he was the QB coach. The only other time he was an OC he bombed in Detroit. I am on board with Staley but he can find a better OC. He even tried to, he wanted O'Connell but wasnt granted permission.

Going to be very interesting in the playoffs when this offence has to play with the big boys and beat serious football teams with potent high scoring offences. Lets hope they can up their game, they will have to in the red zone.

low(er) overall production is a valid point, not the no TD in 2 games. Thats a very short term stat and in those games we were more effective scoring on the ground in the red zone than usual. If Herbie’s arm takes them to the the 5 and they efficiently run it in every time from there, that would be just fine even if Herbie never scores TDs himself.

I agree there should be a better OC out there. I’m not as harsh on Lombo as many but I don’t think he’s great. But the shorter-pass controlled pass offense is what Staley and FO wanted when they picked Lombo. Staley will have to change what he wants as an offense to then change who his OC should be. Maybe he sees a more ambitious attack would be more effective as the shorter more-controlled attack leaves too many 3rd downs and hence basic probability says more drives will stall. Or maybe he thinks the design is sound but execution is not, and position coach improvements are needed - (OL Coaching … cough!). I’m very disappointed the OL doesn’t play better and think that is the key to all deficiencies.

If they get to 10 or 11 wins or one (or more) playoff wins, i would bet he doesnt conclude the grand strategy is unsound vs better execution is needed. Who knows. TPB should brace for the expectation Lombo is here in 2023. I think his offense could dominate with better OL play - maybe an extreme focus on that would change much.

IF they were more effective, than longer time consuming controlled drives will wear out the defense and keeps our defense fresher so we have significant advantages in the fourth quarter in close games. That is a really good thing in abstract. But the key to all of it is they have to be more effective and score more.

[BayAreaBoltz]

Okay. Let's say Lombo is fired today and replaced.
What does the new OC need to do better in RedZone and how do they do that?

Throw into the EZ.

[Boltnut]

You give some rational reasons why Herbert's ave pass yardage is near the bottom of the league this year at 6.7. I think there is some validity to your points

But what about Lombardi's unimaginative, predicatable play calling? Example. The Chargers lead the league in 3rd down attempts by a country mile. Here is the script we have all seen more times than we care to....start with 2 yard run, a 5 yard curl or stick route...and then we are 3rd and 3...rinse and repeat...rinse and repeat

Red zone offence is 26th...not good enough with Herbert as your QB...barely use huge targets that can win catches like Williams and Parnham...way too many predicatble dump offs or curl routes short of the end zone....and you have a QB who can thread a pass into the end zone better than 95% of QBs in the game

These are a couple of the reasons people are fed up with Joe Lombardi and why there is a league wide perception that Joe Lombardi is holding Justin Herbert back

Critty addressed many of these concerns... but here are some that I think are very important.

Herbert's 6.7 yards per pass are a direct result of injuries to Keenan Allen and Mike Williams.
Without those 2 on the field, your receiving options change dramatically. This year, Herbert's main target turned into Austin Ekeler.
Ekeler already has 99 receptions this year (5th in the NFL). That's 2 more receptions that Travis Kelce.
Ekeler has always been a receiving threat... but he hasn't always been the ONLY receiving threat. Last year he had 70 receptions.
Last year, Ekeler's yards per reception was 9.2... this year, it is 6.5. When KA and MW are out, defenses know who the #1 receiving option is...
And it ain't Michael Bandy or Jason Moore. Half the year, our #1 WR was our PR/KR... Bills, Chiefs, Bengals offenses would be anemic without their WR's #1-4.
Justin Herbert's yards per reception was 7.5 last year... higher than the year before (7.2) with Streichen as OC.

Chargers also lead the league in 3rd down conversions.
3rd and short is much easier to convert vs 3rd and long.
Rinse and repeat 3rd and short situations, and you keep your offense on the field longer. More importantly, you keep Chiefs/Bills/Bengals offense off the field.
In theory, a ball control offense also leads to fewer turnovers. You have to win the turnover battle vs. better teams.
Throwing a pick-6 on the 1-yard line is a back breaker... as we all know. That was a 14-point swing vs KC in Week 2.

Which brings me to red-zone offense.
This is by far my biggest gripe with Joe Lombardi... one that nearly every TPB poster misses. If I see another 1st-and-goal pass, I'm going to puke.
If I see another false start... or sack... or holding... I'll turn the TV off. Then I'll puke!
In the red-zone everything is condensed. Your passing windows are tiny. The time your QB has to make a decision is miniscule.
Defenders are on top of your WR's. Defenders can check you WR's at the line and alter pass patterns. Your secondary help over the top is within 5 yards.
It's insane to throw the ball into chaos! Every QB's passing percentage drops by 10% when passing in the red-zone.
I love Justin Herbert... but he's not the team's red-zone stud. Ekeler is. And I'd like to see more Kelly in the redzone the next couple of games.

[Critty]

All good questions but this isnt last year. Pro Sports is a what have you done for me lately business.

Adjustments are made by good teams each year and within seasons, good coaches and co-ordinaters all over the league both offensive and defenisive. Making adjustments clearly does not seem to be Lombardi's strength. He is pretty inept at half time adjustments within a football game. Look at his offense in 3rd quarters. It hasnt scored a TD since week 5....week 5...that is pathetic

Is Joe Lombardi advancing and enhancing Justin Herbert's skill set? Or has Justin Herbert and his talent helped Lombardi more? I know my answer

I am sure there is alot of OCs that would love to work with Herbert. Herbert does not need Joe Lombardi to be a great QB and win games. In fact I think there is another level to Herberts game that could be umlocked with a top level OC.

And we dont need to keep on harping on injuries. There has been a full complement of offensive weapons the past few games now. Most teams in week 17 are missing a good offensive lineman or two.

I agree with you that there are plenty of Xs and O's guys that would love to work with Justin. And that Hebert is great regardless of who his OC is. QB driven league.

But, I disagree with what have you done for me lately idea in running a business or sports. I like to take a big picture view.
Tomlin in Pittsburgh would have been fired a long long time ago when he went 8-8 in back to back seasons under that type of thinking. Same with Cowher when he went 7-9, 6-10, 9-7 and miss playoffs three straight years.

IMO, Steelers are the example of what good organization do. Now they have replaced a number of coordinators under those HCs. So I won't be concerned if Staley chooses to replace Lombo at OC. But I will be very concerned if the Chargers are replacing an HC every 4 years.

I do think Staley is expecting the offense to get better in redzone now that it's relatively healthy again. He said as much in his last press conference. So it appears Lombo is on a bit of a hot seat at this point under Brandon.

[Critty]

Red zone...stop the constant short passes short of the goal line and let the QB with the pin point laser throw end zone routes. Use Mike Williams and Donald Parnham alot more.

Parnham has barley been healthy.
Williams is getting plenty of attention in Red Zone.
Herbert can chose to throw into endzone. It's not like every route was short of endzone. Herbert decided where to throw.
He has been more conservative since ribs injury and he has never been the gunslinger or run through the defense that Josh Allen is. Herbert chooses to check down more often and slide much early and often on scrambles. Will the next OC get Herbert to be more aggressive. Again Aikman specifically said in that Colts game that Herbert is missing opportunity to push the ball by check down too quickly. The opportunity was there and Herbert didn't see it or take it.
Sore ribs are still impacting his play and decision making. IMO.

[BayAreaBoltz]

But the shorter-pass controlled pass offense is what Staley and FO wanted when they picked Lombo. Staley will have to change what he wants as an offense to then change who his OC should be.

Except that Staley's first choice was the Ram's Kevin O'Connell (McVay blocked it) and his second choice was Mike McDaniel (turned it down to be OC for 49ers).

I think that any contrived narrative that says Staley wanted Lombo because he desired some short, behind-the-sticks passing game is ridiculous. People can point to injuries, but let's not rewrite history.

[Critty]

Critty addressed many of these concerns... but here are some that I think are very important.

Herbert's 6.7 yards per pass are a direct result of injuries to Keenan Allen and Mike Williams.
Without those 2 on the field, your receiving options change dramatically. This year, Herbert's main target turned into Austin Ekeler.
Ekeler already has 99 receptions this year (5th in the NFL). That's 2 more receptions that Travis Kelce.
Ekeler has always been a receiving threat... but he hasn't always been the ONLY receiving threat. Last year he had 70 receptions.
Last year, Ekeler's yards per reception was 9.2... this year, it is 6.5. When KA and MW are out, defenses know who the #1 receiving option is...
And it ain't Michael Bandy or Jason Moore. Half the year, our #1 WR was our PR/KR... Bills, Chiefs, Bengals offenses would be anemic without their WR's #1-4.
Justin Herbert's yards per reception was 7.5 last year... higher than the year before (7.2) with Streichen as OC.

Chargers also lead the league in 3rd down conversions.
3rd and short is much easier to convert vs 3rd and long.
Rinse and repeat 3rd and short situations, and you keep your offense on the field longer. More importantly, you keep Chiefs/Bills/Bengals offense off the field.
In theory, a ball control offense also leads to fewer turnovers. You have to win the turnover battle vs. better teams.
Throwing a pick-6 on the 1-yard line is a back breaker... as we all know. That was a 14-point swing vs KC in Week 2.

Which brings me to red-zone offense.
This is by far my biggest gripe with Joe Lombardi... one that nearly every TPB poster misses. If I see another 1st-and-goal pass, I'm going to puke.
If I see another false start... or sack... or holding... I'll turn the TV off. Then I'll puke!
In the red-zone everything is condensed. Your passing windows are tiny. The time your QB has to make a decision is miniscule.
Defenders are on top of your WR's. Defenders can check you WR's at the line and alter pass patterns. Your secondary help over the top is within 5 yards.
It's insane to throw the ball into chaos! Every QB's passing percentage drops by 10% when passing in the red-zone.
I love Justin Herbert... but he's not the team's red-zone stud. Ekeler is. And I'd like to see more Kelly in the redzone the next couple of games.

If they can start to run it in at will in RedZone then you get the easy wide open play action plays opening up.

TE Michael Mayer would be a great addition. Especially for RedZone production. If he runs a slow 40, he may be there when Chargers draft.

[BayAreaBoltz]

Chargers also lead the league in 3rd down conversions.

I mean, c'mon. They've attempted way more 3rd downs than every other team. So of course they've completed more.

But they are 10th in 3rd down conversion. The top teams? Bills, Chiefs, Eagles, Cowboys, Bengals, 49ers.

Interesting.

[Critty]

This is a good read about redzone offense.
All teams run similar stuff no matter the window dressing
The best way for defenses to beat it. Win at LOS and Get pressure on the QB.

Block just a bit better up front and score more TDs.

5th rated redzone last year with Slater. 26th without him.

Is this a coincidence? Tillery cut and defense improved to #1 in the league over the time he has been gone. Could adding Slater be the key to a super bowl run?

:couch:

[dmac_bolt]

Critty addressed many of these concerns... but here are some that I think are very important.

Herbert's 6.7 yards per pass are a direct result of injuries to Keenan Allen and Mike Williams.
Without those 2 on the field, your receiving options change dramatically. This year, Herbert's main target turned into Austin Ekeler.
Ekeler already has 99 receptions this year (5th in the NFL). That's 2 more receptions that Travis Kelce.
Ekeler has always been a receiving threat... but he hasn't always been the ONLY receiving threat. Last year he had 70 receptions.
Last year, Ekeler's yards per reception was 9.2... this year, it is 6.5. When KA and MW are out, defenses know who the #1 receiving option is...
And it ain't Michael Bandy or Jason Moore. Half the year, our #1 WR was our PR/KR... Bills, Chiefs, Bengals offenses would be anemic without their WR's #1-4.
Justin Herbert's yards per reception was 7.5 last year... higher than the year before (7.2) with Streichen as OC.

Chargers also lead the league in 3rd down conversions.
3rd and short is much easier to convert vs 3rd and long.
Rinse and repeat 3rd and short situations, and you keep your offense on the field longer. More importantly, you keep Chiefs/Bills/Bengals offense off the field.
In theory, a ball control offense also leads to fewer turnovers. You have to win the turnover battle vs. better teams.
Throwing a pick-6 on the 1-yard line is a back breaker... as we all know. That was a 14-point swing vs KC in Week 2.

Which brings me to red-zone offense.
This is by far my biggest gripe with Joe Lombardi... one that nearly every TPB poster misses. If I see another 1st-and-goal pass, I'm going to puke.
If I see another false start... or sack... or holding... I'll turn the TV off. Then I'll puke!
In the red-zone everything is condensed. Your passing windows are tiny. The time your QB has to make a decision is miniscule.
Defenders are on top of your WR's. Defenders can check you WR's at the line and alter pass patterns. Your secondary help over the top is within 5 yards.
It's insane to throw the ball into chaos! Every QB's passing percentage drops by 10% when passing in the red-zone.
I love Justin Herbert... but he's not the team's red-zone stud. Ekeler is. And I'd like to see more Kelly in the redzone the next couple of games.

I got $100 that says you won’t turn the TV off. turning it off for a minute to win the bet and turning it back on is not allowed,. You have tor turn it off FOREVER to win the bet.