POLL: Is It Time To Bench Rivers?

[jamrock]

Yes, other players and coaches can have an influence on the results, which is precisely why one needs to isolate to the degree possible the player's performance and not the team's performance by examining stats over a significantly large sample size. By doing so, one can see what a player has done over the course of his career.

How many Super Bowl winning teams did Barry Sanders play for over the course of his career? The answer is zero and yet he is arguably the best RB ever to play in the history of the NFL. How about LaDainian Tomlinson? He was not too shabby either.

How many Super Bowl winning teams did Tony Gonzalez, Antono Gates and Jason Witten play for over the course of their careers? Yet those are three of the best TEs ever to play.

The same is true of the QB position. How many Super Bwl winning teams did Dan Fouts, Dan Marino and Warren Moon play for over the course of their careers?

So being on a Super Bowl winning team had nothing to do with the greatness of those players since they were not on one. Then why were they great? Because their stats said they were great.

If I am building a team, I want a Dan Marino, not a Trent Dilfer. Being on a Super Bowl winning team means zero, zip, nada, and absolutely nothing about how good an individual player is. It never has and it never will. Never. And it is mind boggling how so many people can't see that.

You can be a great individual player and not win a Super Bowl. No argument. Nobody is saying Dilfer is better than Marino by the way. But guys like Joe Montana and Tom Brady are in the GOAT conversation because of the Super Bowls. QBs get judged differently. They'rte the leaders of the team in the ultimate team sport

It's not Rivers fault that he hasn't won a Super Bowl but he also has not done anything extraordinary to get them there, much less win, and he's had ample chances and teams equipped to do it.

[Guest]

It’s crazy how many people shit on Rivers like he hasn’t carried this team on his back for 14 years. The man is top 10 in passing yards, passing TD, completion %, and QB Rating. And that is with 2 years sitting on the bench. I’ve seen a lot of blame be put on him for the team not winning division since 09. If our team hasn’t won the division since 09 with a future HoF QB, I put that on ownership/management, not him.

Has Rivers had some really bad games? Yes. Has he made some awful passes in desperation? Yes. He even cost us a couple games this year. But he’s also playing under an ownership who hasn’t really done much to fix problems that we have. While other teams are making big moves to bring players like Tunsil and Minkah Fitzpatrick in, were signing guys like Bob Sanders, Takeo Spikes, and Thomas Davis. I may be forgetting someone, but I feel like Pouncey is one of the only nice signings that’s been made by this team.

I feel the team needs to build up the line in the offseason and give the man one more shot. He’s the only reason the Chargers haven’t been the Browns of the AFC West.

I will take that one step further. Here is a look at Rivers' performance since Okung returned from his pulmonary embolism in order of passer rating achieved:

JAC (154.4), GB (108.3), DEN (106.3)--Okung plays all snaps Rivers plays.
CHI (82.7)--Okung plays 80% of the snaps Rivers plays, but misses snaps due to an injury.
OAK (57.5)--Okung plays only a few snaps and is then forced to leave with an injury.
KAN (49.6)--Okung does not play at all due to injury.

Now, to be clear, I am not suggesting that Okung's presence is the only factor, but I do think there is a correlation between Okung's presence and how well Rivers plays. And I would not consider Okung elite at all. If the team could just field an OL that would give Rivers a chance, he has shown over and over that he plays at an elite level more often than not. But saddling him with the likes of Tevi, Scott and Pipkins has been a real disservice to Rivers and the rest of the team.

So I continue to say that the team should fix the problem. The problem is the OL. It is not Rivers, who was an MVP candidate just last year. I continue to see zero evidence of a drop off from Rivers himself, just the OL. In fact, Rivers posted his career best single game QB rating for his entire career just last Sunday.

The only QB in college right now that appears to be an elite QB prospect that could develop into a player with a chance to be at or near the same level as Rivers is Trevor Lawrence. QBs like Burrow, Tua, Hurts, Herbert, Fromm and others all have some degree of NFL potential, but the likelihood that any is a suitable long term option to replace Rivers is slim. So, IMO, drafting a QB in the 2020 draft amounts to a wasted draft pick when the team already has a QB in Rivers with 1-2 good years left in him. Honestly, I have reservations that any of the top QB prospects likely entering the draft would even be significant upgrade over Tyrod Taylor. Some could be, but I do not see any as an iron clad proposition for even that level of play.

[RyanLeaf4President]

I will take that one step further. Here is a look at Rivers' performance since Okung returned from his pulmonary embolism in order of passer rating achieved:

JAC (154.4), GB (108.3), DEN (106.3)--Okung plays all snaps Rivers plays.
CHI (82.7)--Okung plays 80% of the snaps Rivers plays, but misses snaps due to an injury.
OAK (57.5)--Okung plays only a few snaps and is then forced to leave with an injury.
KAN (49.6)--Okung does not play at all due to injury.

Now, to be clear, I am not suggesting that Okung's presence is the only factor, but I do think there is a correlation between Okung's presence and how well Rivers plays. And I would not consider Okung elite at all. If the team could just field an OL that would give Rivers a chance, he has shown over and over that he plays at an elite level more often than not. But saddling him with the likes of Tevi, Scott and Pipkins has been a real disservice to Rivers and the rest of the team.

So I continue to say that the team should fix the problem. The problem is the OL. It is not Rivers, who was an MVP candidate just last year. I continue to see zero evidence of a drop off from Rivers himself, just the OL. In fact, Rivers posted his career best single game QB rating for his entire career just last Sunday.

The only QB in college right now that appears to be an elite QB prospect that could develop into a player with a chance to be at or near the same level as Rivers is Trevor Lawrence. QBs like Burrow, Tua, Hurts, Herbert, Fromm and others all have some degree of NFL potential, but the likelihood that any is a suitable long term option to replace Rivers is slim. So, IMO, drafting a QB in the 2020 draft amounts to a wasted draft pick when the team already has a QB in Rivers with 1-2 good years left in him. Honestly, I have reservations that any of the top QB prospects likely entering the draft would even be significant upgrade over Tyrod Taylor. Some could be, but I do not see any as an iron clad proposition for even that level of play.

exactly. From reading this board you’d swear Rivers evolved into Ryan Leaf. I’ve rewatched all the losses this season, and the Oline gets wrecked constantly. Just watch the Steelers game. Rivers could play another 2 years if we had decent protection for him. Even if they’re going to draft a QB, still make moves to boost the OL and give him another year. This team isn’t far away from a Super Bowl run.

[Gwynning_Spirit]

MJ didn't win 6 in 7. MJ went 0 for 7 first 7 seasons then won 6 in 8 seasons then blanked for the rest of his career.

Bird didn't win 6 in 7. Kobe didn't win 6 in 7. Bird could have won more if he didn't have to play against Magic (say some other team drafted Magic), Magic could have won more if he didn't have to play against Bird (say some other team drafted Bird) Magic could have as many rings than MJ.

Oh, you're right, it's 6 in 8 if you count the season he didn't play unless your critique includes his ability to hit a curve ball.

I think Rivers is in the Wizards portion of his career now. We can bring him back for another year or whatever, but he is who he is.

[Boltgang74]

I will take that one step further. Here is a look at Rivers' performance since Okung returned from his pulmonary embolism in order of passer rating achieved:

JAC (154.4), GB (108.3), DEN (106.3)--Okung plays all snaps Rivers plays.
CHI (82.7)--Okung plays 80% of the snaps Rivers plays, but misses snaps due to an injury.
OAK (57.5)--Okung plays only a few snaps and is then forced to leave with an injury.
KAN (49.6)--Okung does not play at all due to injury.

Now, to be clear, I am not suggesting that Okung's presence is the only factor, but I do think there is a correlation between Okung's presence and how well Rivers plays. And I would not consider Okung elite at all. If the team could just field an OL that would give Rivers a chance, he has shown over and over that he plays at an elite level more often than not. But saddling him with the likes of Tevi, Scott and Pipkins has been a real disservice to Rivers and the rest of the team.

So I continue to say that the team should fix the problem. The problem is the OL. It is not Rivers, who was an MVP candidate just last year. I continue to see zero evidence of a drop off from Rivers himself, just the OL. In fact, Rivers posted his career best single game QB rating for his entire career just last Sunday.

The only QB in college right now that appears to be an elite QB prospect that could develop into a player with a chance to be at or near the same level as Rivers is Trevor Lawrence. QBs like Burrow, Tua, Hurts, Herbert, Fromm and others all have some degree of NFL potential, but the likelihood that any is a suitable long term option to replace Rivers is slim. So, IMO, drafting a QB in the 2020 draft amounts to a wasted draft pick when the team already has a QB in Rivers with 1-2 good years left in him. Honestly, I have reservations that any of the top QB prospects likely entering the draft would even be significant upgrade over Tyrod Taylor. Some could be, but I do not see any as an iron clad proposition for even that level of play.

This sums up my draft wants for the last 3-4 yrs.O line,o line,o line.

[ChargingBolts]

Oh, you're right, it's 6 in 8 if you count the season he didn't play unless your critique includes his ability to hit a curve ball.

I think Rivers is in the Wizards portion of his career now. We can bring him back for another year or whatever, but he is who he is.

As a lifetime Chargers fan from Chicago and a White Sox fan (and dislike Bulls, Bears, Blackhawks, because that's who the Cubs fans like). Jordan going to the Sox was a joke. The people in Chicago that saw him driving 100 mph through school zones, (2 books written about him being a jerk, the Jordan Rules 1 and 2) knew what a jerk he was, the scoop was it was a gambling issue to where he was going to be possibly suspended from the NBA and he got to save face by "retiring" for the first time of three retirements (his father was just recently murdered, rumor was over debt) but who knows. MJ was adored but in my opinion played in a watered down league when he finally won due to recent expansion of 4 new teams (Hornets, Grizzlies, Heat, Magic) equaling 60 new NBA roster spots, so now your 10th best player was your 7th best player, etc. Players like Bird made their team better immediately with no additional players added (no McHale or Parish yet) going from 29 wins before Bird to 61 with Bird. Jordan didn't make his team better hogging the ball, he was pretty like Kobe was pretty but not effective getting more wins until the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons got old and 4 new teams watered down the league, he never went against the back to back Rockets champs in the finals either (Penny and Shaq bounced Jordan out of the playoffs the one year), Barkley and the Suns and Karl Malone and the Jazz played them super tight and could of beat them had they got a few breaks (same with Reggie Miller coached by Bird).

I personally think Rivers will be effective like Brees and Brady have been until 41 years old, so 4 more years until he's Wizards MJ.

[Gwynning_Spirit]

As a lifetime Chargers fan from Chicago and a White Sox fan (and dislike Bulls, Bears, Blackhawks, because that's who the Cubs fans like). Jordan going to the Sox was a joke. The people in Chicago that saw him driving 100 mph through school zones, (2 books written about him being a jerk, the Jordan Rules 1 and 2) knew what a jerk he was, the scoop was it was a gambling issue to where he was going to be possibly suspended from the NBA and he got to save face by "retiring" for the first time of three retirements (his father was just recently murdered, rumor was over debt) but who knows. MJ was adored but in my opinion played in a watered down league when he finally won due to recent expansion of 4 new teams (Hornets, Grizzlies, Heat, Magic) equaling 60 new NBA roster spots, so now your 10th best player was your 7th best player, etc. Players like Bird made their team better immediately with no additional players added (no McHale or Parish yet) going from 29 wins before Bird to 61 with Bird. Jordan didn't make his team better hogging the ball, he was pretty like Kobe was pretty but not effective getting more wins until the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons got old and 4 new teams watered down the league, he never went against the back to back Rockets champs in the finals either (Penny and Shaq bounced Jordan out of the playoffs the one year), Barkley and the Suns and Karl Malone and the Jazz played them super tight and could of beat them had they got a few breaks (same with Reggie Miller coached by Bird).

I personally think Rivers will be effective like Brees and Brady have been until 41 years old, so 4 more years until he's Wizards MJ.

I haven't been in a city full of Swerskis, so I don't know what that's like or the dude as a man, but the league is as it was then: a few super teams consisting of 2 or 3 great players and role players, an occasional hard-working all role player type of team, and a bunch of teams with no chance ever. Jordan's championships weren't against scrubs... ask Stockton and Malone.

If Rivers was in NO the year the stars aligned for them, I believe he could have been a champ under Payton (I'm sure he could have been for Belicheat too).
But playing under Norv and the rest has contributed to Rivers being who he is now. If you pet a dog on the head when he craps on your lawn that's what you're going to get.

[RyanLeaf4President]

You can be a great individual player and not win a Super Bowl. No argument. Nobody is saying Dilfer is better than Marino by the way. But guys like Joe Montana and Tom Brady are in the GOAT conversation because of the Super Bowls. QBs get judged differently. They'rte the leaders of the team in the ultimate team sport

It's not Rivers fault that he hasn't won a Super Bowl but he also has not done anything extraordinary to get them there, much less win, and he's had ample chances and teams equipped to do it.

where were all these teams equipped to do it? Did I miss some seasons?

06 - his fist year. Don’t really hold anything against him
07 - played on a torn ACL to try and get us to super bowl vs a 16-0 patriots team
08 - Garbage D
09 - Could be argued he could’ve played better in Jets game. But Kaeding also missed 3
10 - garbage special teams. Rivers played at MVP level
11 - 16 - Garbage teams
17 - Garbage Kickers
18 - Bradley let Patriots put up 35 points in a half on them

so which one of these teams could Rivers have played a little better and won it all? Can be argued if he didn’t throw those 2 INT in 09 we make the Championship game. But are we really beating those 09 Colts? Just curious which season he plays better in and makes a super bowl?

[ChargingBolts]

where were all these teams equipped to do it? Did I miss some seasons?

06 - his fist year. Don’t really hold anything against him
07 - played on a torn ACL to try and get us to super bowl vs a 16-0 patriots team
08 - Garbage D
09 - Could be argued he could’ve played better in Jets game. But Kaeding also missed 3
10 - garbage special teams. Rivers played at MVP level
11 - 16 - Garbage teams
17 - Garbage Kickers
18 - Bradley let Patriots put up 35 points in a half on them

so which one of these teams could Rivers have played a little better and won it all? Can be argued if he didn’t throw those 2 INT in 09 we make the Championship game. But are we really beating those 09 Colts? Just curious which season he plays better in and makes a super bowl?

Great synopsis

A lot of people seem to forget how special the 2009 season was.

We started off 2-3 as usual and then Rivers and company won us 11 games in a row ending 13-3 with a bye.

The Colts were 14-2 and even if Kaeding made 2 of 3 field goals and we beat the Jets, even though we owned the Colts in that era we would of had to go to Indy and win against them for a 3rd year in a row in the playoffs in their house, a tough task (I liked our chances at home in 2006 versus the Colts in the AFCCG better if Mcree would of just not intercepted Brady).

Let's say we would of won in Indy, we would of had to play the Saints in the SuperBowl and as great of a storyline as it would of been Brees vs. Rivers the sentiment was for Brees saving flooded from hurricane Katrina the city of New Orleans, the country other than Chargers fans would of been rooting against Rivers, plus more people like Rivers now than then due to the yelling at Jay Cutler fiasco, he would of been despised and hated.

Let's say the Saints beat us. Would we be happier that Rivers at least got us to a Super Bowl and still have no ring?

Oh, and 2010 we didn't even make the playoffs even though we had the #1 ranked offense in the NFL and by the way also the #1 ranked defense in the NFL!!

but out of all years to have the #32 ranked special teams bite us in the ass ... sigh

man we are cursed and snake bitten, the football gods really hate us!

2017 lost those first four games by a hair each, had we just won one or two we would of had more playoff experience for 2018.

2018 was special and we could of beat the L.A. Rams for sure in the S.B. (although we would have had to win in K.C. again, the Denver debacle loss killed us, had we won we would of had a bye, hosted Indy then hosted N.E. and Cheatriots would have only had 1 week to prepare for us instead of the 2 weeks they had).

[ChargingBolts]

where were all these teams equipped to do it? Did I miss some seasons?

06 - his fist year. Don’t really hold anything against him
07 - played on a torn ACL to try and get us to super bowl vs a 16-0 patriots team
08 - Garbage D
09 - Could be argued he could’ve played better in Jets game. But Kaeding also missed 3
10 - garbage special teams. Rivers played at MVP level
11 - 16 - Garbage teams
17 - Garbage Kickers
18 - Bradley let Patriots put up 35 points in a half on them

so which one of these teams could Rivers have played a little better and won it all? Can be argued if he didn’t throw those 2 INT in 09 we make the Championship game. But are we really beating those 09 Colts? Just curious which season he plays better in and makes a super bowl?

2008 was quite the year as well, we started 4-8 and ended up winning (4 games in a row) the division 8-8, hosted the Colts in the playoffs and beat Manning again 2 years in a row in the playoffs this time in O.T. thanks to great field position all day from excellent Punter Mike Scifres (MVP of game in my opinion) and Sproles winning the game at the end (5 wins in a row).

Then we played in Pittsburgh (I was at this game). We started off strong, long bomb from Rivers to V Jax for a TD and quick lead, I was going nuts with other Chargers fans expecting beer to be thrown on us (thankfully not). The Steelers then had a punt return for a TD (how often does something like happen? rarely) and we went to the half down 14-10.

Then in true Chargeresque fashion was something that never happens to any other NFL team, the football gods only let us have the ball for 30 seconds in the 3rd quarter, a punt bounced off of p.o.s. Eric Weddle's helmet. We lost 35-24 even though Rivers put up 14 fourth quarter points.

Had we won that winnable game our 8-8 AFC West champion Bolts would have hosted in San Diego the wild card Ravens in the AFCCG whom the Steelers beat.

Then we would of played a very beatable AZ Cardinals in the S.B.

This would have been the justice Charger fans deserved, 4-8 and finally winning the Super Bowl and a ring for Rivers, Gates, L.T., Merriman.

2007 we all know what happened, lost to a 17-0 Cheatriots team that went to 18-0, if we had a healthy Gates, L.T. and Rivers could of been a Rivers/Eli SB.

2006 all we needed was Marlon to drop the ball instead of intercept it.

2005 Gates held out and we barely lost our first game and missed the playoffs by one game.

2004 Kaeding missed FG vs. Jets (F'n Kaeding)

[RyanLeaf4President]

2008 was quite the year as well, we started 4-8 and ended up winning (4 games in a row) the division 8-8, hosted the Colts in the playoffs and beat Manning again 2 years in a row in the playoffs this time in O.T. thanks to great field position all day from excellent Punter Mike Scifres (MVP of game in my opinion) and Sproles winning the game at the end (5 wins in a row).

Then we played in Pittsburgh (I was at this game). We started off strong, long bomb from Rivers to V Jax for a TD and quick lead, I was going nuts with other Chargers fans expecting beer to be thrown on us (thankfully not). The Steelers then had a punt return for a TD (how often does something like happen? rarely) and we went to the half down 14-10.

Then in true Chargeresque fashion was something that never happens to any other NFL team, the football gods only let us have the ball for 30 seconds in the 3rd quarter, a punt bounced off of p.o.s. Eric Weddle's helmet. We lost 35-24 even though Rivers put up 14 fourth quarter points.

Had we won that winnable game our 8-8 AFC West champion Bolts would have hosted in San Diego the wild card Ravens in the AFCCG whom the Steelers beat.

Then we would of played a very beatable AZ Cardinals in the S.B.

This would have been the justice Charger fans deserved, 4-8 and finally winning the Super Bowl and a ring for Rivers, Gates, L.T., Merriman.

2007 we all know what happened, lost to a 17-0 Cheatriots team that went to 18-0, if we had a healthy Gates, L.T. and Rivers could of been a Rivers/Eli SB.

2006 all we needed was Marlon to drop the ball instead of intercept it.

2005 Gates held out and we barely lost our first game and missed the playoffs by one game.

2004 Kaeding missed FG vs. Jets (F'n Kaeding)

Marlon didn’t even need to drop it. Just intercept it and fall down. Let’s not also forget, after a failed 4th down conversion, someone head butted a pats player and got an unsportsmanlike penalty that I believe lead to a pats TD(sorry been so long). And Kaeding also missed a game tying FG. That was Chargers best chance. The NFC was trash that year. It was just a matter of who made it from the AFC.

[RollingThunder]

Yes, other players and coaches can have an influence on the results, which is precisely why one needs to isolate to the degree possible the player's performance and not the team's performance by examining stats over a significantly large sample size. By doing so, one can see what a player has done over the course of his career.

How many Super Bowl winning teams did Barry Sanders play for over the course of his career? The answer is zero and yet he is arguably the best RB ever to play in the history of the NFL. How about LaDainian Tomlinson? He was not too shabby either.

How many Super Bowl winning teams did Tony Gonzalez, Antono Gates and Jason Witten play for over the course of their careers? Yet those are three of the best TEs ever to play.

The same is true of the QB position. How many Super Bwl winning teams did Dan Fouts, Dan Marino and Warren Moon play for over the course of their careers?

So being on a Super Bowl winning team had nothing to do with the greatness of those players since they were not on one. Then why were they great? Because their stats said they were great.

If I am building a team, I want a Dan Marino, not a Trent Dilfer. Being on a Super Bowl winning team means zero, zip, nada, and absolutely nothing about how good an individual player is. It never has and it never will. Never. And it is mind boggling how so many people can't see that.

Those positions do not have as big as an effect on the outcome of a game. The Trent Dilfer situation that is constantly brought up is an anomaly instead of the norm. Although rare, anomalies happen from time to time.

The unavoidable fact is that the QB position is the central figure on a football team and is expected to orchestrate and align almost everything that happens offensively. They are also expected to be the defacto leader of a team and how they act and perform under pressure has a direct impact and spreads to the rest of the team. We see the latter play out time and time again in football.