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Originally posted by wu-dai clan
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I absolutely loved Marty Schottenheimer!! Although he never won the big game, he was very positive for the game.. He never had the opportunity to coach a great QB in their prime years, as the single season with Montana notwithstanding. -
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Seth is the particular PFF writer who bagged on Herbert at draft time.Originally posted by Boltjolt View Post
He's been trying to sugarcoat and cover up his feebleness lately on Twitter.We do not play modern football.Comment
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My 2021 Adopt-A-Bolt List
MikeDub
K9
Nasir
Tillery
Parham
ReedComment
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To add to BoltUp InLA 's point even more, this is Kurt Warner breaking down the growing pains of Josh Allen. While I feel Herbert is much further along as a passer, it is important to note that they are somewhat similar physically. The question is how can Herbert take the next step forward and become an MVP candidate himself? It starts with the mental side. It's the difference between someone like Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers (or in this case Josh Allen). Brady will usually not have as many Wow plays as the latter two, but he makes all the subtle but just as equally important ones.Originally posted by wu-dai clan View Post
“That’s always the big question,” Warner says. “When has somebody hit their ceiling? When do we know that they can’t become any better? And other guys just continue to grow and grow and grow.”
Which brings us to this next source of pressure on Josh Allen. We still don’t know what to make of him as a quarterback.
How high is his ceiling?
To most, the answer is easy: Sky freakin’ high. To most, he’s making all those haters eat their words. To others, it’s a bit more nuanced. To others, he’s still a mystery. Those who study the position intensely from NFL scouts to the greats like Warner — a Hall-of-Famer who may now watch more QB film today than anyone in the country as a NFL Network analyst — are not completely sold. To them, the light at the end of the tunnel is more of a flicker that’ll blow out against a good defense in the playoffs. The concept of “ceiling” is different to Warner than it is to you or I. He doesn’t view “ceiling” through the lens of a QB’s physical ability. He doesn’t see a rocket arm or breakneck speed or did-he-just-do-that!? improvisation and project greatness.
No, to Warner, ceiling is all mental. All how a quarterback processes the game.
After all, that’s how a Barnstormin’ cast-off essentially changes offensive football.
Warner studies Allen. Warner has concerns.
Over the summer, he re-watched every snap of the Bills’ playoff loss to the Texans and… yikes. It was bad. Allen missed “lay-up” after “lay-up.” His unusual frame stood out then. Warner is a firm believer that it’s extremely difficult for lanky, 6-foot-5 quarterbacks to ever become rhythmic passers. Peyton Manning was tall, sure, but “still compact,” Warner notes. In Allen, he sees “long levers” and Warner believes it’s extremely difficult for any quarterback with such levers to condense everything into a concise throwing motion that lasts.
And even as Allen then torched the league with an MVP-caliber September, even as millions of us believed we were witnessing a young QB turning the corner and anyone who ever uttered a bad word about Allen was told to repent for their sins, Warner saw something else. Warner saw a quarterback making (very) simple throws to (very) fast receivers. A quarterback who, frankly, didn’t need to use his brain much. As defenses started getting more exotic in coverage with their zones, Allen regressed. Allen lacked a counterpunch. Hence, the JV-level picks vs. the Titans and the near picks vs. the NFL’s worst team and the fumbles (he’s up to 28 in 38 starts). After that 4-0 start, Buffalo lost to two AFC powers and wobbled to wins over two AFC lightweights with Allen completing 62.7 percent of his passes for 211.5 yards per game, four scores, four picks and a 79.2 passer rating.
“When you get man to man, you don’t have to process the information,” Warner says. “It’s just ‘Pick a match-up that you like, and go.’ And, so, it’s a great thing for young guys because it comes down to the physicality more than it comes down to the mental side of it. When you add the mental side to it — with a guy who’s still learning how to play the position like Josh and still learning how to process and, at times, gets antsy in the pocket — all this stuff starts to stack on top of each other. And that is when you have your inefficiencies.
“The further you get away from what’s easy for you and the more you have to think and process, the harder anything is going to be. That’s what you’re seeing. Teams are going, ‘OK, we’re going to make him process and have to go through progressions.’”
Hope filled the air again when Allen threw for 415 yards in that win over Seattle but even that win further makes Warner’s point. This was a historically bad pass defense, one that’s getting gashed for an NFL-worst 343.7 passing yards per game, inexplicably playing Cover 0 for 11.8 percent of snaps and Cover 1 on 33.8 percent of snaps (per PFF). The next game was the ultimate Josh Allen Experience. Allen threw two errant passes that should’ve been picks, two errant passes that were picks before, then, leading what we all thought was another epic, game-winning drive.
And the mystery continued.
This isn’t uncommon. Warner points to ‘02 when he broke his finger and those Rams had to roll with a rookie (Marc Bulger) or a veteran (Jamie Martin). Coaches asked Warner what he thought and he recommended Bulger because even though the Rams were 0-5 and the Raiders were 4-0, he knew the Raiders played strictly man to man. Bulger wouldn’t have to think too much out there and, voila, Bulger threw three touchdowns with a 134.1 passer rating in a 28-13 win.
Bulger even had himself a nice little career.
But, no, the Bills did not draft Josh Allen to be Marc Bulger.
The Bills need Allen to evolve. How quickly can he see that outside ‘backer about to scream off the edge? How quickly can he recognize the defense shifted to Cover 2 pre-snap? How quickly can he decipher this all and react with the perfect throw? These are the questions Warner still has because Warner still sees a split-second of buffering from Allen and that slightest tick of hesitation destroys a play.
“You have a level of physical ability and it is what you are,” Warner says. “Lamar Jackson is not getting faster. Josh Allen is not going to throw the ball farther. Where he’s got to get better and try to reach his ceiling — whatever his ceiling is — is going to be the mental side of it. How far can you push yourself? Will you truly be able to see defenses, process it and go to the next level? The great ones have the ability to process information quickly and get to the right play.”Warner doesn’t want to just pick on Allen. He sees this as the ultimate test for this entire wave of young quarterbacks. Athletically, no doubt, this group is “ridiculous.” But where they all suffer is that they’ve been able to default to that ridiculousness their entire lives — be it 4.3 speed, a cannon right arm, etc. — whenever their mental process short-circuits. Suddenly it’s “Forget processing. Go run and make a play,” he says. And, sure, that’ll win you your fantasy football championship. That’ll fill up the stat sheet. Allen ranks seventh in passing yards.
This programming, however, does not win rings.
To Warner, it’s no coincidence that Jackson was stymied in the playoffs. Twice. He does not believe a quarterback who relies primarily on athleticism can win a Super Bowl. The closest to do it was Colin Kaepernick and, he notes, Kaepernick had the benefit of the NFL’s No. 1 defense.
“That’s as close as we’ve seen,” Warner says, “to a guy who doesn’t really know how to play the quarterback position carrying his team all the way to a Super Bowl.”
There’s real value in going all in on your quarterback’s raw gifts. Even Whaley admits he too often viewed the NFL as a trickle-down league as GM when so much is trickling up from college. The Ravens ditched their long-levered QB (Joe Flacco) — ditched their whole playbook, really — to revolve everything around Jackson’s speed and set an NFL record with 3,296 rushing yards in 2019. Lamar was the MVP. Lamar was surreal, weekly. And in Buffalo, Daboll has fully capitalized on Allen’s physical gifts, too. He’ll unleash him on a QB sweep. He’ll turn him into a receiver. He’ll scheme Diggs into 1-on-1’s and let Allen rip it.
Now, both Jackson and Allen need a counterpunch.
A quarterback cannot razzle ‘n dazzle ‘n playmake his way to three playoff wins in a row. As special as Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson are, Warner believes both only have one ring apiece because both relied so heavily on freelancing much of their careers. Which also helps explain why Brady has simultaneously spent his entire adult life collecting rings. You never watch one of his playoff games and scream at the top of your lungs that Brady made 15 “ridiculous!” throws but Brady makes the right throw “over and over and over again,” Warner says.
This brand of quarterbacking is what rises to the top.
“If you’re playing against three good defenses,” Warner says, “and you think you’re going to make enough plays ad-libbing to beat them, it’s probably not going to happen.
“So when I say, ‘What is your ceiling?’ I want to know: How complete can your game be? Not how athletic you are and how far that can take you. But how complete can you be — Can you see your hots? Can you understand protections? Can you throw the ball away when you need to throw the ball away? Can you make the tight throw when you have to? Can you read and process to your third and fourth receiver consistently when a team takes away your 1 and 2? Can you make the lay-ups? … It’s always more mental when a guy reaches his ceiling and a guy continues to get better and better and better. It’s not because they’re getting better physically. It’s because they’re getting better mentally. And that’s what we want to know: What is your ceiling Josh Allen, in terms of your mental ability to process and understand everything from technique to reading coverages to making the throws to making the right decisions?
“That, to me, becomes the ultimate question with this new-era of quarterback. How long can they sustain what they’re doing to have their statistical success before it’s going to have to adjust? And if they do or if they don’t will determine how long they play in this game and at that level.”
Thus, it’s pretty simple for the Bills. Until Allen develops that counter, they are a 10-6, 11-5 team that will run into the buzz saw that is Mahomes.Comment
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Uhhhhh.
Josh Allen did not play like this as a rookie.We do not play modern football.Comment
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I could be wrong but if I had to guess I would say that the reason Herbert was worse on the clean pocket throws is because those were quick read plays. I mean let’s face it Herbert rarely had a clean pocket unless he was getting rid of the ball in under 2 seconds and sometimes not even then. Those quick reads are a lot more about pre-snap reads than anything else, and that’s something every rookie QB struggles with. He’s shown he has the smarts, I expect those reads to get much much easier for him next year especially with Lombardi coming from an offense that does a great job of utilizing packages and movement to help diagnose defenses pre-snap.
Also teams film on Herbert is only going to give them so much info as we transition to a new offense. It’s not like the film teams had on him by the end of the season slowed him down much anyways.Comment
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The article was written halfway through this current year when Allen had early MVP talks. Warner is pointing out the flaws even now on the mental processing side.Originally posted by wu-dai clan View PostComment
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Great Info Xenos!! I believe it speaks to where Herbert is as well. Brady proves that the wow plays are mostly unnecessary, but being able to make the routine plays regardless of coverage is paramount for QBs in reaching that next level I believe now.Originally posted by Xenos View Post
To add to BoltUp InLA 's point even more, this is Kurt Warner breaking down the growing pains of Josh Allen. While I feel Herbert is much further along as a passer, it is important to note that they are somewhat similar physically. The question is how can Herbert take the next step forward and become an MVP candidate himself? It starts with the mental side. It's the difference between someone like Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers (or in this case Josh Allen). Brady will usually not have as many Wow plays as the latter two, but he makes all the subtle but just as equally important ones.
It's great that Staley will be able to challenge Herbert more so in that way! Posters, the hire of Staley to go along with the talents of Herbert might very well be Telesco's greatest move.. at least that is what I am hoping for. lol.Comment
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Just saw that only 1 QB this year had a passer rating over 125 against the Bucs. Is anyone surprised it’s Herbert?Comment
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isser: PFF
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